Why didn't they pair up Chakotay and Janeway in the end?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Mr. Scott, Jul 9, 2010.

  1. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    About Janeway/Chakotay:

    Firstly, thanks 2takesfrakes and secondly, I'd add that I prefer a sincere friendship which lasts than a passionate lovestory which will eventually fail after a few years. Look at X-Files: of course, a certain sexual tension between the 2 main protagonists (Mulder & Scully) is palpable but what I most appreciated is, the total dedication they feel for each other (which goes well beyond the sex) and which allowed them to overcome all the dramatic events. Carter gave in to the pressure of the fans and eventually, the pairing slept together (and later, lived under the same roof), had a child and all of this to finish to part. And yet, when they met again years after, the complicity and respect they shared in the past are still there.
    -> I clearly don't see this degree of emotional attachment with Janeway/Chakotay...
    if not, a guy who pursues a girl to jump her and when he finally understands that she isn't interested, he runs after another "hare", more sensitive and inexperienced by hoping to have more luck..., which isn't very flattering for the guy in question! :rolleyes:

    I completely support Mulgrew's choice (which was shared by producers and later, by Beltran, btw) of a platonic relationship between both commanding officers. Besides, they are quite busy on their own :
    - Janeway has a vessel & its crew to bring back home AND later, a brilliant career in Starfleet ahead of her (and she doesn't even need to have her own child to feel accomplished, to take young people under her wing - as she made with Kes and Seven -, seems to bring her as much satisfaction as to raise her own -> she demonstrated that she was a very good teacher, knowing to listen and to advise at best)
    - Chakotay, who is intended to teach (if he doesn't finish his life in a penitentiary for his past of rebel in the Federation) and who falls in love easily, should keep looking for the perfect partner for him (and the one who will be willing to carry his children)... what doesn't prevent me from thinking that Seven isn't the one for him either and that she will eventually leave sooner or later him when she will have understand the situation -> Ok, I voluntarily forgot all about Beyer's fictional sequel, which seems to me unrealistic :whistle:
    Honestly, after Resolutions, the producers and their writers should have definitively clarified the situation between the both commanding officers, in stating that the sparkles which may have eventually been there at the beginning, had to give way to a beautiful friendship and nothing more. There would have been less painful for viewers in s 7, especially in Endgame.

    About Kes :

    I really didn't understand why they screwed Kes return in Fury. The Ocampa who was the epitome of kindness during 3 seasons, reappeared in a mad/crazy avenger. It was stupid and worst, insulting for Jennifer Lien, the Ocampa's actress and for fans. :mad:

    About the reshuffling of characters.

    It was clearly a bad idea and the result is that Voyager, even if it reached 7 seasons, is one of the least favourite Star Trek series (just before Entreprise and its 4 seasons-> besides, we found Berman and Braga, the same who botched Voyager, btw! :mad:), what is quite unfair as seeing as, there was so much potential both in terms of characters (Janeway, Seven, The Doctor -> he was very far from being one of my preferred but the character was original) and stories (Message in the bottle, Future's End, Scorpion, Year of Hell, etc.. ).
     
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  2. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Ghislaine, Thank you, for giving a very full answer! There is a lot to read and digest, there. Very good Food for Thought, in fact. I'm trying to sort out my own thoughts in response to it ... first and foremost, I agree that it's better to keep the sexual tension alive in a show, rather than having the leads scratch their respective itch ... and then some. Because the way drama works is: Boy meets girl. Boy loses girl. Boy gets girl back. Every cinema has been showing this since the Silent Movie Era. I don't know why, it's just a convention. In broad strokes, it doesn't seem so bad, but the devil is in the details. It can really get tedious, especially in a series, going through all of these permutations. The most interesting phase in a cinematic relationship is, in fact, that moment of anticipation. Nothing's happened, anything could happen and it generates a good deal of interest.

    BUT ...
    Audiences have been impatient with this for some time, now. Blame attention deficit disorder, or whatever you want to on it, but there it is. But seeing how Chakotay and Janeway were older, even then, they might've been somewhat immune to a lot of unnecessary drama in their relationship. But whether Rick Berman's team would've wanted it that way is another story. It's good to see our favourite leads finally hook up, because there's this false sense that everything's going to be great with the show, now. Of course, that's not how entertainment works, unless the couple is comprised of 2nd bananas, or something like that.

    Seska did seem to genuinely love Chakotay, despite her being just about as whacked out as a woman could ever hope to be. She also liked to cook for Chakotay, particularly his favourite soup. That made her happy, to do it, to always excel in a way that could always please him, no matter what he, or they, were going through. But she just couldn't change with the situation, as he did ... like he actually wanted to, even. In this way, Janeway became a more obvious match for the Man. She would've been good for him, giving him the emotional stability that Seska couldn't bring. But I don't believe Janeway would've prided herself for making Chakotay happy in the same way. She'd make token gestures and whatever, to put a smile on his face, but it's expected to be enough. Seska was a little more womanly, in this regard and I do appreciate that about her, very much. Chakotay deserved a great woman ... never quite got it ... but he kept trying and I thought that was awesome. Damn right, find yourself a woman ... and nevermind the bullocks!
     
  3. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This is an interesting take, on it, which I'm curious about. I mean ... yes, I understand Chakotay and Janeway meet privately to discuss the workload (and it's a hell of a load!), but they do seem to be Playing House, somewhat. Acting like a couple that's been married, for years, where they don't have to paw eachother each and every nanosecond. If you were new to Voyager and just changed the channel to it, maybe, you'd be surprised that they weren't actually involved with eachother. I also found the lighting levels to suggest, at least, a romantic atmosphere. All of these elements are present and accounted for, to some degree, or another ...
     
  4. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If Chakotay, who was involved with Janeway, tried to break up with her, evidence from the show would suggest that Kathryn would tie him down and surgically alter his memories until he loved her again, and the dissolution of their relationship failed.
     
  5. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Damn right, she would! And put him on the path to Alzheimer's in the process ...
     
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Serious disease, but if that's her MO, then you're suggesting that what happened to Tuvok in Endgame, his dementia, is her fault?

    Had her dirty, dirty, dirty fun, and then fried his brain so that T'Pel wouldn't find out?

    That reminds me of some scenes from Elsa the Shewolf a little.
     
  7. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Mindgames are nothing new to the Fairer Sex, in any century.
     
  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Time delayed instant messaging, like how Doc Brown sent mail from the old west to 1955.

    An apology letter to your spouse listing the individuals you're most likely to have hooked up with in your crew if it becomes true that you are lost in space and a century from home.

    Or alternatively, letters to the spouses of the men and women who are now fair game, now that you are 7 decades from Earthspace with restricted dating options.

    "Hey Trudy, if I'm not dead, I'm going to bang your husband. Sorry, not sorry."
     
  9. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I can understand that they didn't pair off Janeway and Chakotay during the series, due to their roles as Captain and Commander. It could have complicated the chain of command.

    But I think that the writers could havbe given the large group of J/C fans a "happy ending" in the last episode! :luvlove:
     
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  10. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That would've worked for me, if his preceding crush on her had only just started toward the very end. Otherwise, having gone on for years, it seems more like he just finally wore her down and she threw her arms up, like, "... alright, I give up - you win! Have me, Chakotay ... I'm yours." And that's no fun. He should've just set his sights on her and then, with relative ease, aimed his arrow at the mark ... and hit it.

    ... Ha! When you mentioned "Doc Brown," I thought you meant Ben Bailey Smith. I was like, "what the hell's he talking about?" I don't really watch much science-fiction, and what I do like is usually very earth-based. Like Evolution, or Terminator, or something else along these lines ...
     
  11. somebuddyx

    somebuddyx Captain Captain

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    Slightly off topic: but is Chakotay/Seven any more weirder than Worf/Troi?
     
  12. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Both relationships came out of nowhere, completely. Beyond that, their similarities say, "adieu." But, the Worf/Troi pairing, especially, made no sense, whatsoever - outside of wanting to give two best buddy actors every opportunity to have scenes together, which they normally wouldn't have had. Chakotay and Seven didn't bother me, as much as it does others. Considering Voyager's unique situation, they had to make due with what's at hand ...
     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Junkies shouldn't date other Junkies if they're trying to stay sober.

    (Chuckles is also an ex-drone, but then after season seven, so is Janeway.)
     
  14. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Chakotay only had one woman who was really hot ... the rest were just "OK." The limited choices ... the forced compromises ... the lowering of standards ... the frustration! The mental anguish must've worn heavily upon the Man. All he could do was persevere. Mother of Mercy! Is it any wonder that he took to Vision Quests? These are the times that try Men's souls. When one finds oneself turning to an Animal Spirit Guide or some Greater Power to find the strength to survive ... adapt ... and overcome. Chakotay's definitely my favourite character on VOY, with "Tattoo" probably being his strongest episode. "Unity," was really good, as well.
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Unity was the one where he started an Orgy.
     
  16. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I loved it when The Borg Lady used her magic on Chakotay, afterwards, to have her way with him, in private. What better medicine with which to convalesce? The healing properties of her Raw Heat were such that the EMH never did feel compelled to examine Chakotay, upon his return. And just when Chakotay was placing another notch in his belt and ready to move on, he found himself doing the things The Borg Lady wanted of him. Bald headed women in STAR TREK often have Powers of Persuasion that are difficult to reckon with ... and impossible to ignore.
     
  17. Catarina

    Catarina Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I really enjoyed Unity even if it threatened my J/C intrigue back in the day.
    However, I thought he had more chemistry with that ugly species 8472 hehe.

    Beltran said it was like being in a desert that even Kim started to look good. LOL!
     
  18. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    HA! ... I'll bet.

    And holodeck characters just do not cut it, when it comes to romantic interludes and shit like that. I can see some trying it out, as a means of possibly easing their desperation, but they keep seeing Harry Kim there, all the time. It's like ... "he's always here, this guy." It would only compound the embarrassment, if you tried to go a second time. Otherwise, there's not much that can really be done about it, is there? It's not natural to be lonely, even animals protest against it. A feral cat moans when she's in heat - and when he's lonely, a stray dog will howl in the night. Women must've seemed just like an oasis to Chakotay ... one here ... one there ... and inbetween, nothing but wasted nights. Curled up with a good book might've floated Janeway's boat, at night ... but, like most Men, Chakotay needed something far more substantial. The printed word is not enough ...
     
  19. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So, if I understand well, the holodeck became the sex doll of 21th century! The difference is, the way we prepare, right? :crazy:

    We already know that Tom Paris - before B'Elena's appearance in his life -, Harry with Delaney sister (?) and Tuvok - with T'Pel during his pon farr - used a holodeck program when they were in need of some sexual relase, right?!
    Why not using the traditional sex doll of 20th century?! Of course, it is less romantic but well, let's be honest, men are rarely in search of it in these moments and, it is also effective and discreet. :whistle:

    What about Cpt Janeway who refused to reveal too much to The Doctor about her relationship with Michael Sullivan in Fair Haven?. Do you think she slept with "him"? As for Seven, we know that she only learns how works the courtship with Chakotay 2.0. I don't think either that she copulated with him during this short period?! And then after to have studied Paris & Torres and searched information about sex in Voyager's datas, I guess that she must already know a lot in this domain even if she didn't practiced yet! :whistle:
     
  20. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's a good question. I don't know if I have a good answer. It's better to just beat your meat, you know? It's more efficient than trying to bop a balloon with a nappy wig on it.
    There is no doubt that Kathryn gave herself fully and willingly to Michael Sullivan. And that is so flattering to someone like Chakotay, who's been wearing his heart on his sleeve, you know? He's made his presence known, despite his other miscellaneous pursuits ... and advertised his interest in her. So, his conscience is clear, you know? She didn't have to go the hologram route. It was never necessary, but in spiting Chakotay, she was really, only hurting herself. But try telling her that, you know? She won't listen. Snag some KY from Sickbay, then she's off to the Holodeck ... and push Harry Kim out of the way, once she gets there.