Why didn't they pair up Chakotay and Janeway in the end?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Mr. Scott, Jul 9, 2010.

  1. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Even if Starfleet is "the principal means for conducting deep-space exploration, research, defense, peacekeeping, and diplomacy", the organization works on the military model (uniforms, ranks, academy), right?! Well, by experience (I'm a former officer who worked in the french equivalence of JAG), I can tell you that usually, military populations, have a very good memory. Result: battles won and lost, exploits of all kinds and crimes survive over the centuries and continents.
    (For my part, I noticed that from comminding officers, officers, soldiers and even civilians working for military, use to hold and talk about only battles won with the name of their leaders and betrayals of any kind and the name of their perpetrators! <grin>)

    Yes, the world moves but not the military. Indeed, despite technological advances, weapons or even political changes, these people are like frozen in a world where traditions, battles, present feats (exploits of all kinds), honors, infamy acts form a whole and they transmit this whole from generation to generation.
    -> cf to Dreyfuss Affair which ran 12 years (even if the officer ended rehabilited, his life was definitively crushed). I could tell you the stories of officers at any rank, who were sent to prisons in the aftermath of the 2 world wars for treason during the conflicts (the most part were shot after a quick trial), and some of them were only pardoned last year, because the charge was not formally supported. And this was possible because the families kept the pressure on the authorities! Oh and lately, I heard that a US soldier who had abandoned his post 20 years ago, just being caught and he was doing jail.
    -> in ST: Voyager, I remember how Tom Paris was welcome when he first put his foot aboard Voyager. Most officers had never met him before but all knew what he has done to some Starfleet officers and ‎despised him for this.

    Even if the former Maquis crew had to enjoy a certain indulgence, due to their collaboration on Voyager (even if they had in fact, little choice -> die in Kazon's hands or in hands of whatever other species OR live in a relative security with Janeway and her crew), indulgence isn't a pardon and still less, a carreer within Starfleet as some - like Chakotay - would like so much. Some friends of mine, fans of Star Trek, who still work as officiers in disciplinary field, told me that they thought that a pardon was completely reject, and a more lenient penalty with a forced exile was more likely, excepted for B'Elena Torres, who could take advantage.

    I'm sure that during the time Voyager was still in DQ, at Starfleet HQ, some Admirals, like Hayes, strove to decide what they would do of Chakotay and his former crew, once they would be back on Earth (= in which prisons will they send them after their trials, etc...) even maybe hoping that some of them would die in space.

    On the contrary, I think that because they are humans and that their cases will have a strong chance to be treated with Starfleet human officers, they will be more likely to benefit a certain form of indulgence. Other species could have treated them hardest, especially if they think that strong values, dear to their species, were violated.
     
  2. Catarina

    Catarina Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    @Sophie74656 and @cosmic mouse

    https:// youtu.be/mSh8bxuZ0so


    I put a space after the //


    *updated opinion

    As for the "Kiss" that was never filmed to anyone's knowledge. It was debated for the script by Jeri Taylor. There is a script somewhere floating about with more insight. If I find it again. I'll post it. At this time, I believe it never happened. A rumor.

    ***update again. OMG.... well I'll just let you two read it.
    http://fuckyeahjanewaychakotay.tumb...kncrowder88-so-i-got-these-from-the-hardcover
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
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  3. cosmic mouse

    cosmic mouse Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeeeaaahhh.... no. Seems like a good idea maybe, but Chakotay's "stories" are not amongst my favorite aspects of the series, even with my love for his character (or certain parts of it).

    I didn't watch the show in real time, like when it aired, so the promo spot means little, but it seems misleading for some who were watching back then. It seemed like they would get together and, then BAM! Nada. I guess I have some sympathy for the JC people if they kept getting the rug pulled out from under them repeatedly.
    Both Resolutions and Natural Law seem like missed opportunities now... for different reasons, but Chak is the common denominator.
     
  4. Catarina

    Catarina Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So here is my thought on this^ forgive me any die-hard romantics out there, (I am a JC but this wasn't what I had in mind) but if i were Mulgrew, I would have refused this N.Earth script too. I watched through laced fingers as it was. This is too over the top for me. But there you go! Apparently there was a written in kiss.
     
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  5. Sophie74656

    Sophie74656 Commodore Commodore

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    I think because i was in my early teens when Voyager came out watching janeway and chakotay was like watching my parents. I was never a fan of the pairing. However they did play a flirtation.

    If they had been on new earth for longer i have no doubt they would have started hooking up.
     
  6. catshadowsi8

    catshadowsi8 Captain Captain

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    Since my sons are 25 and 28 they are far from teenagers. Fact is B'Elanna herself in Maneuvers stated Chakotay is a very private person and doesn't talk about these issues easily. Most people don't run around after the first date and tell everyone. Heck, they hadn't even kissed.

    There is no way they can know they are going to make it passed the second date, let alone get married. Way ahead of where the story is.

    According to Endgame Chakotay and Janeway are never the same but to imply it affects their work is a bit of a stretch. If it does then both are equally affected but they still successfully get Voyager home over a decade later so I don't see how you can make this assumption.

    True, 7 has been on board for 4 years. The crew has risked their lives for her (Dark Frontier) and her for them (One). By season 7 we see little to no animosity toward 7 or Janeway for taking her under her wing. Even B'Elanna is warming to her as seen in Human Error.

    You are naughty and made me rewatch Endgame. Lol This scene is not in Endgame. Maybe you read it in one of the books. Chakotay and Admiral Janeway never share a scene alone together. Neither does Captain Janeway and Chakotay. The only one the Admiral talks to about this is 7.

    I also do not see their trust shattered. After Scorpion comes Night were she says she trusts no one more than Chakotay. She says the same in The Omega Directive. After Equinox Janeway admits she crossed lines and Chakotay could have led a mutiny. He said it would have crossed the line. In the Voyager Conspiracy Jameway herself admits they have come too far to stop trusting each other. Both accept it will not happen again. Even more poignant is the grave yard scene with old Janeway. She is still going to him to discuss her plans with clear affection in her demeaner. In fact she goes back to make things better for him as well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
  7. Sophie74656

    Sophie74656 Commodore Commodore

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    I agree about the date thing. I didn't tell my parents about some of my first dates. I only told my parents about my boyfriend when i knew he was going to be a serious thing.
     
  8. catshadowsi8

    catshadowsi8 Captain Captain

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    Same. My parents never met several of my dates. In fact, neither did my friends.
     
  9. catshadowsi8

    catshadowsi8 Captain Captain

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    Well based on story Chakotay resigned his commission before joining the Maquis. As such i don't think he is not answerable to a military tribunal. Your examples are of military members who engaged in questionable tactics while still serving. Ex military do join private firms and, to the best of my knowledge, their actions are not scrutinized by the military because they are private citizens and so subject to the public court system. Short of war crimes, which, when Chakotay joined Voyager, had not happened, I believe the military can only rescind his provisional rank and deny him remittance to Star Fleet. The rest has to be addressed by the public court system. Correct me of im wrong. I'm an airforce brat but not fluent in military law.

    I will say knowing what you did for a living explains your hatred for all the Maquis. It makes sense.

    As for your second quote by me I don't remember what thread you took it from. Can you tell me where you got it so i can see the context I used it in. Thanks.
     
  10. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    If you've seen ds9, eventually the cardassians tore up their treaty with Feseration, invaded the demilitarized zone, and squashed the Maquis, then launched a full scale war on the Federation itself.

    That is when the Maquis change from "terrorists" to "freedom fighters."

    I mean, what would they be charged with? "Attacking a Cardassian Freighter"? I could be wrong, but I think the western allies, upon invading western Europe, treated the French, Dutch, et al resistence as "friends" in ww2(Again, I could be wrong).

    Can you be convicted for simply associating with the Maquis? Do they have a RICO statute in place for Federation citizens in the DMZ? By the time Voyager gets back, the war is over, cardassia is conquered, and the Maquis are all dead. The DMZ is now free of ANY Federation colonists. If they hadn't all been killed, they'd have been allies during the war.

    I say they were free to go build new lives. The good ones were offered positions into Starfleet, particularly Chakotay, and B'elanna. Paris is already "officially" back in SF.

    For many reasons, those 20 or so former Maquis crewmembers are not going to penal colonies. There's no reason to hold them.

    Edit: Now, there may be individual former Maquis members that have outstanding warrants for more serious crimes, that could expect justice upon returning to Earth, but we just don't hear about them. The closest is maybe Sudor, but Sudor is dead.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Cassiday Yates did a little time for being a maquis, and then married a god.

    They attacked Federation ships as well as Cardassian ships.

    Lock em in a hole.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  12. EmoBorg

    EmoBorg Commodore Commodore

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    I think it would have been against Star Fleet regulations for a serving Captain and her/his First Officer to form a romantic relationship.
     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So Tom and Dee should get divorced?
     
  14. SpyOne

    SpyOne Captain Captain

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    I agree that there was probably a formal amnesty for the Maquis once the Cardassians went to war with the Federation. Either because of that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing or the more humanitarian reason of giving them a direction in which to safely run.

    But I don't think that was necessarily automatic.

    Your WWII resistance analogy doesn't work on a number of levels.
    Imagine that Spain, which was neutral, later entered the war. Suppose that while they were neutral, they made it a crime to give material support to either side. They caught people smuggling weapons to the French Resistance and sent them priso, and they did the same to anyone smuggling weapons to the French government (after the Germans conquered them).
    Are they going to let half those people out of prison since they were backing the side the government chose? Or are they going to insist that when the government says don't do something ghat means don't do it, even if the government later changes its mind.

    Both we mostly agree.
    Even most Maquis with outstanding warrants will find leniency for their actions aboard Voyager.
    The only folks going to prison are folks like Lon Suder, who are still a danger to others.
     
  15. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So, that means that you think that he survived basics II?
     
  16. JanewayRulz!

    JanewayRulz! Vice Admiral Admiral

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    In my deepest heart of hearts, J/C did happen on Voyager.



    "That's all I have to say about that."
     
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  17. catshadowsi8

    catshadowsi8 Captain Captain

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    What a beautiful song! Love the singers. I get a little tired of all the pop songs sometimes and I've never heard this before. Thank you!
     
  18. Catarina

    Catarina Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That was pleasant wasn't it?
     
  19. borgboy

    borgboy Commodore Commodore

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    Troi isn’t Riker’s first officer though.