Why didn't they pair up Chakotay and Janeway in the end?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Mr. Scott, Jul 9, 2010.

  1. esme

    esme Ensign Red Shirt

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    I was a kid when ST:VOY came on TV and about 20 years later, I'm still enjoying this series so much. When
    the episode Resolutions aired, I found the Janeway/Chakotay storyline so cute and romantic – and I still do until now, although I'm not a die-hard J/C shipper at all.

    I can understand that they didn't get togehter during the journey home and I think their friendship was a quite interesting aspect of the whole show.

    But why not a happy ending between Kathryn Janeway and Chakotay in the end? They could have left it open ended instead of writing a Seven/Chakotay romance that came out of the blue ... Endgame was a really disappointing episode at all points...
     
  2. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Janice Rand was the "Captain's Yeoman" which would place her directly under him and there was a lot going on between them.

    But ultimately, regardless of who their immediate superior is, are not all the crew under the authority and direction of the ship's Captain? So even though the likes of Helen Noel, Marlena Moreau, or Neela Darren all report to others onboard, it is Kirk or Picard who is their superior (or even their bosses boss, which makes it a far more tangled web to weave).

    I'm fairly certain (though stand to be corrected if its wrong) that characters have said there are no rules to say a Captain can't date a member of their crew, more that it's frowned upon as opposed to forbidden (though this would then bring into play the idea of the "forbidden fruit" :lol:).
     
  3. TeaTiger

    TeaTiger Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes they break up in the books though it is mutual and un-acrimonious.

    HOWEVER what happens next is..

    Chak and Kathryn get together. They go on a date and then they go back to her place and then, at last, they DO IT. Once. The very next morning Kathryn leaves to go off on a mission and she is KILLED!! SHE. DIES. Chak immediately descends into a badly written emo-fanfic pit of hell and wallows there, disgustingly, for far too long (two books?). Eventually he is coaxed out and tentatively resumes his duties. Kathryn's death goes on for quite a while, several books, and then she RETURNS! And now they are together again, don't know if they got married because I'm waaaay behind on my treklit. But they are all happy and stuff.

    So in the end a subset of fandom was catered to which pleases me even though that wasn't my subset, I am J/7 all the way. But it's nice they finally gave us what a whole lot of fans wanted.


     
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  4. Mirror_Barclay

    Mirror_Barclay Commander Red Shirt

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    I think medical officers were portrayed as somewhat more independent of the normal chain of command than other officers - otherwise by TNG era I don't think Picard or Riker could have considered a relationship with Crusher or Troi. Even so, neither potential couple went through with it during the show.

    Chakotay was a line officer reporting directly to Janeway, and it was impossible for either of them to transfer if they started a relationship and later found it interfered with their duties. So there was a much greater obstacle there, though I'd have liked them to overcome it anyway.
     
  5. Paradise City

    Paradise City Commodore Commodore

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    Picard in talking to Troi about Darren said there was no rules prohibiting it. But Picard was clearly deeply shaken by having to jeopardise her safety. The realpolitik of these kind of relationships is that its a hard slog for the partner who is the senior officer.
     
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Was he? Was he really?

    Chakotay was terrorist scum allowed to make believe that he was a line office because Janeway needed hard bodies to keep her pipes clean.

    "PROVISIONAL" rank badges in stead of pips?

    Truly Janeway would not have been allowed to make time with Chakotay because he was her prisoner and therefore it would have been terribly illegal.

    Ditto for Tom and B'Elanna.

    A guard or a warden pleasuring an inmate in an intimate physical relationship is most probably statutory rape under Federation Law, just like it is in Orange is the New Black.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2016
  7. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Please, folks, look at this video. It's HILAROUS!!! :guffaw:
    "Let's talk about J/C - Kate Mulgrew" by Sczep84
    [SIZE=6]
    [/SIZE]
     
  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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  9. Katinka

    Katinka Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Well, one thing is for sure, the topic of J/C sure is a popular one. I have thought about this more than any sane person probably should and am ending up where I started: they should have gotten together, either during the show towards the end for a nice arc with conflicts and possibilities - nothing overt, just hints - or definitely in the end.
    I do somehow, if I try real hard, understand that Janeway would not allow herself to act on her feelings. In the beginning there was Mark and once he was out of the picture those damn Star Fleet regulations, Although I believe, they were just an excuse (seriously, she broke all the others, with abandon and repeatedly). The issue is her understandable fear that she would loose her ability to make the hard decision, that she would get too soft, less prepared to fight, less her usual hard-ass self, loose her edge, not just with regards to him, but over all. If she had allowed herself to love and be loved it would have been so much harder for her to send Tom or B'Elanna (or any other paired-up crew members) in harms way as she would have understood the strain and heart-ache on the other much better. That would have made it a lot harder for her to get them back in the time she did.

    In this context: there were remarkably few kids on Voyager, 7 years, 150 mostly young people and we have: Naomi Wildman who was conceived before and Miral who is born the last possible minute. Hard to believe, really, in my first six weeks of graduate school more people hooked up and eventually got hitched and had kids than the crew in 7 years ...

    So, anyway, she didn't act on it when Mark dumped her and all that repressed emotion and lust must have had pretty dire psychological consequences for the two of them. In the end, though, she should have fought for him and gotten him. The Admiral told her about Chakotay and Seven. How Janeway is it to just step back and flinch a little and let him go? She's a fighter, if nothing else, she should have fought for him and gotten him and the very nice and romantic understated way suggested above by Bry_Sinclair. Or better yet the whole C/7 thing should have started and ended on the Holodeck.

    I am thankful for fanfiction, I must have read 100 different scenarios that all brought them together in the end which is a lot more satisfying than what the series gave us.
     
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  10. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I really didn't like how Chakotay would have all these feelings and Janeway would just pat him on the head and say, "there, there." It dilluded the Chakotay character and weakened him, I feel. They should've just been Friends with Benefits. And that's all. It wouldn't have been necessary to see them making-out and everything, either. Just show one or the other walking in the room as we fade to commercial, then we see them in bed together, when we get back. That's all. An actual J/C relationship would've been in constant danger of becoming needlessly corny and melodramatic, at times. And it would've been cool to let Chakotay leave a trail of broken hearts through the Delta Quadrant, whilst Janeway did her "I'm Captain and need to set a good example," routine. A win/win!
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What about that time when Chakotay was Captain in Scorpion?

    Sure she was in a coma for most of it, and that would have been wrong.

    But she didn't instantly become Captain, when Kathryn woke up. The ship had to be officially handed over verbally, and then probably backed up with a shit ton of paperwork by some clerk invisibly in the background.

    So Janeway still had the rank of Captain, but she wasn't Voyagers Captain, and Chakotay hadn't probably officially bumped himself up in rank, as he was still just a mere lieutenant Commander who Captained Voyager.

    Although a field promotion usually takes until the home office asks "WTF??!!"

    Either way, there was a tiny window, where Kathryn's prudent rules did not apply and she could have took the man all night long.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2016
  12. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yeah, you know ... Janeway should've just done the expedient thing and to hell with propriety. They could've just covered it with a line, or two. But Kathryn's a strange mix. Consider how when her father drowned - which, as I understand it, she did not witness - she wouldn't leave the house for months, OK? MONTHS!!! She has her own mode of thinking which defies all attempts to decode and decipher. Today, shrinks have names for these things ... maybe she was manic depressive? I don't know. But something definitely seems to have been afflicting her mind, when times got tough. When Voyager's flung into the deepest reaches of the unknown ... never able to get back ... she can't hide in her room, this time, so she comes off with this "I'm above what my body needs" edict and informs the available, lovesick and willing Chakotay ...

     
  13. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If there are no mental health issues in the future, why do they need Counsellors?

    Oh.

    Physiological defects can be weeded out before birth, psychological problems are the result of living life.

    Every human in the Federation has perfect brain chemistry, but they're all also a lot of them who are whiny needy little entitled shits who snap when confronted with the barest lack of perfection.
     
  14. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes, it's challenging for Star Trek's heroes to keep an even keel when accidents aren't supposed to ever happen, in a Perfect World. And they're not, you know. Like Voyager's predicament, for example. As a result, its very corridors are populated with lonely people ... with lonely stares. People like Harry Kim and Vorik, for example. So, (it's my view, that) had Voyager at least been peopled with a goodly percentage of attractive and available women, Chakotay probably never would've crushed on Janeway, in the first instance. He'd simply view her as part of his job ... the lady who signs his cheques ... some warmer feelings of being a part of a team ... even friendship. But that would've been about it. I'm sure once that fever broke, so to speak, and Chakotay finally let go of his crush on Kathryn, he was likely very embarrassed by it all. Like, "... what was I even thinking?" It's just the need to be with someone that comes with being a soldier stationed so far away from home, without meaningful Human contact. It's to be expected ... it just shouldn't have gone on so long.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2016
  15. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It never happened because the series was run by a bunch of people who didn't care about the series itself, its premise, the characters or the cast members. They only cared about themselves.

    At the end of the series, they did only seem to be interested in insulting large parts of the fan base while sneaking out the back door and planning for their new pet project, the retro series which would be what they thought TOS should have been.

    That's why we got character destruction, relationships that were meant to annoy the largest fan base and not even a decent homecoming for our favorites.
     
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  16. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    VOY didn't seem to suffer from a lack of care, to me. But it is true that Rick Berman's team had been relatively new to making movies, at that time. First Contact, definitely had an effect on VOY, being incredibly successful and very well done. So, there was probably more of a sense of "ownership," with VOY than had ever existed, before. Trekkies became less important than new audiences, because FC, in particular, had so much broad appeal. They started smoking their own publicity and thought they could pretty much get away with anything, as long as they kept pulling in the numbers.

    I'm not sure that plans -ENTERPRISE- played any part in any of that, at all. The network said that ENT was being made with, or without Berman (with the preference of it being with OUT) but, naturally, he wasn't at all prepared to let this franchise go, and remained heavily involved. It was more the tremendous success of First Contact that became the game changer for VOY. It put everything in a new light, especially after the disappointment of Generations, when they didn't have much creative control or experience in movie-making. But I never felt that VOY was unloved. It just ended up being solely concerned with the numbers game ...
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016
  17. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, I'm sure that there are a lot of people here (and maybe on other forums as well) who think that I'm very critical to those in charge and that it might have something to do witj the treatment of Kes.

    And there might be some truth in that! At least it affected me to look at their work more critical than I was before.

    But it's not only "the Kes case". The more I look at Voyager, the more I see "the holes in the ship's hull" or to be more precise, all the contradictions, the bad writing and the overall lack of interest for the product.

    I think tjhat they actually did a good job with TNG. As for DS9 there were other people in volved with that series. But when it comes to Voyager, I think that they missed and wasted many good opportunities with tha series.

    They had an excellent premise, they also had, in my opinion, the most interesting characters and they also had a great cast with splendid actors. But in some way, they mismanaged all that.

    I'm not saying that Voyager was bad, not at all. But it could have been better.

    Instead of using the opportunities they had with the excitement of a ship lost in the Delta Quadrant which really was "going where no one has gone before" and use that premise, they diidn't seem to know how to handle it. They created a lot of possible storylines which went nowhere and were never brought up again. The writing was erratic, brilliant here and there and sloppy in other places.

    I have often watched Voyager's seasons 1,2 and 3 and I must say that while Season 1 was exciting and Season 2 was brilliant, the lack of direction started to show here and there in season 3. It was like they had nothing to lean on when the Kazon and the Vidiians were left behind and instead of using the boundless opportunities with a lost ship with using their imagination to come up with new species, new situations and such, they fell back to old things, like the Borg.

    Not to mention all the continuity errors, which obviously have made my life funny with all attempts to find solutions for them but stii were evidence that they actually didn't really care.

    What really annoys me was when they started to annoy the fans by character destruction and scenarios which they must have known would annoy a large group of fans.

    They didn't have to dump Kes in season 4 and what they definitely didn't have to do was to destroy the character the way they did in that horrible season 6 episod.

    They didn't have to pair off Chakotay and Seven either. They must have been aware of the fact that a large group of fans wanted a "happy ending" between Janeway and Chakotay. They could have fulfilled the fans wishes in the last episode. Why not? Or they could have left it hanging in the air, something for the fans to fantasy about and for possible upcoming movies and books. Instead they came up with that Seven/Chakotay affair from nowhere. That was actually rude.

    And why no decent homecoming?

    And why kill of Carey and dump Neelix? None of that made sense either.

    There were so much in Voyager which could have been done much better.
     
  18. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, undoubtedly Chakotay fell very quickly under Janeway's spell and. As for Janeway, I am more perplexed. Indeed, even if she felt flattered by his unrestrained courtship - and certainly sensitive to his charm -, it seems to me that nevertheless, she has always made sure to hold Chakotay within a reasonnable distance, pleading at first the existence of Mark, her fiancé, then after the non-fraternization policy and finally her will to focus her attention to find a way to return the Voyager and its crew, safe and sound on Earth.
    Everytime, she resisted the temptation and God knows that the opportunities were numerous for her to give in to Chakotay's advances (especially of course, in Resolutions), what lets me think that, whatever her 1st officer hoped, Janeway never really considered a romantic relationship with him seriously. Just a small flirtation without consequence.

    In fact, as I have already said in one of my precedent comments, Janeway lives only by and for her career to Starfleet (I bet that if she had got married Mark, he would have eventually asked for the divorce after 1 or 2 years, tired of her profesionnal duties).

    As for repeated dinners whom we attended during several seasons, don't think that they were just organized by Janeway to forget a few hours, the solitude (and sometimes, the boredom) of the capitaincy?! I mean, every time, these dinners took place in her cabin - Chakotay has never invited her in his to cook a dinner or to share a drink -, and nevertheless, nothing ever happened. In fact, if I remember well, they often spoke about work during these moments, even if sometimes, it diverted on more personal subjects but never really intimate ones.
    In time, she was more interested to create a relation of real friendship that to look for love with him and I think that this feeling was shared by Chakotay at the end.
     
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  19. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Nicely stated, Ghislaine! Janeway was married to Starfleet ... and that's just fine. Kes, Torres and Seven brought plenty of romance to the screen, without Janeway chiming in. But it's not like she couldn't have easily kissed her fast "good-bye," either. But Chakotay didn't "do it" for her. That's OK, too - you know why? Because the Universe is a big place, filled with lots of people ... so, Chakotay got with a woman, or two, along the way, like Riley and Kellin ... and Seven. Not a lot, to be sure, but enough to take the edge off of his lonely existence. And seeing Chakotay keeping his options open, despite his crush on Janeway, made his crush on her more tolerable, at least. And in Resolutions, it would've been so much better, by far, if the implication was that they did have sex, even if we never saw it, to help justify which ever way they decided to go with the J/C relationship. If it was a one-off, then fine. Chakotay's had her, knows what he's missing, now, and can move on. Had his infatuation continued, the implication could be that Kathryn has hidden talents which he valued, appreciated and wanted to re-experience, in full.

    What was done with Kes in Fury was atrocious, I have to agree. All to say to the audience, "see? See, you really wanted Seven, not Kes! Aren't you so glad that we got rid of that sweet pixie? Here, let's write her this shite part, to make sure she's not confused about not being wanted on this show!" I've always hated it, but that's what happens when other people are holding the P!NK copy of the receipt to the character. To all of the characters ... killing off Seska and Souder? BIG MISTAKE! And all because their coolness threatened to compromise the cool factor of the new borg lady being developed. Only Seven could be cool beyond all description on this show!

    The reshuffling of characters. We've got Tom in Sick Bay and for what? I don't know that he became the In-House director, after that. So, he kind of got screwed, $ave for his marriage to Torres. Chakotay's just the XO ... enforcing Janeway's policies and keeping her schedule free, so she can glom onto Seven and her entourage and keep her star status on the show. You're right ... too many missed opportunities and misfires, but they were made, as I say, with the intent, mainly, of raking in the numbers. The problem is, with a goal like that, it's like being a doctor for money. If money's all you're in it for, you're not going to be the standout. The Best of the Best. VOY could've been the STAR TREK to end all STAR TREK's, but it set its sights on transient viewership, instead.
     
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  20. STEPhon IT

    STEPhon IT Commodore Commodore

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    Nonsense. Chakotay never, not once ever showed any feelings for Janeway and never hit on her. Being Captain can be a lonely place, especially when her ship is multiple lifetimes away from her home. Chakotay being the subordinate first officer's job was to keep the Captain mentally secure and healthy.

    I didn't find those dinners romantic at all, but instead a form of professional friendship and an understanding its healthy for 2 commanding officers to have some private time. They just can't share their fears and concerns to a lower ranking officer; it would give the perception they're weak minded. It wasn't as if there was a counselor on board. The notion of advances from Chakotay is a subjective example of seeing something that was never there.