How is/isn't Discovery Star Trek?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by seigezunt, Sep 11, 2018.

  1. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think looking at that music choice in DSC revealed more about fandom, when I see it discussed here. Because it gets discussed as the disco track it’s sampled from, as opposed to the later track it actually is. It’s almost how you can gauge target audience vs who is actually discussing the show.
    To be fair...either way it was a naf track lol.
     
  2. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wrong studio, Lois. ;)
     
  3. Spot261

    Spot261 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And therein lies the problem. For some people it was too dark, others complain about the party scene, Tilly and the campy Mirror universe arc.

    Some people go down the "it's not canon" route, others say it plays too loose with the timeline and continuity, others complain it took too few risks.

    As someone mentioned upthread, every iteration of trek has faced exactly the same criticism, we've even had the Klingon complaints before.

    At the end of the day people can either watch it or not, but it IS Trek, simply one that may not to be to everyone's taste.
     
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  4. thribs

    thribs Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Nemesis had a boring battle??? That’s just crazy talk.
     
  5. Jinn

    Jinn Mistress of the Chaotic Energies Rear Admiral

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    Oh, yeah, based on that I wouldn't like Pike either.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
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  6. Rahul

    Rahul Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would add one other, major important point: That humankind has evolved and let it's darker sides behind it.
    This is something where TNG has been overly preachy about it - it's better shown then told - but it has been there right from the beginning:

    The TOS crew were 18th century explorers without the imperialism. The 60s era astronauts without the racial and gender segregation. They made a deliberate attempt in showing Uhura - a black woman - in a position of power - and it wasn't treated as something unusual. We know that there is peace on Earth (and the Federation), and crime and racism (almost?) exctinct.

    This might be just a minor background detail. But it's an important one. It seperates Trek from almost all other science fiction, which showed humanity in the exact same flawed state as it is today (Babylon 5's problems with alien racism on Earth, BSG's flawed humans, Star Wars' Empire), or even worse.

    Many people don't like it, but I think it holds true - our world today, as crappy as it might be - is still a thousand times better in EVERY regard - be it warfare, medicine, famine - than any other point in history before. And in the Trek future, we stay on this part (braodly - bumps on the road like WWIII and the eugenic wars included), and continuisly better ourself and humanity as a whole.

    For me, this is even more important then the every once in a while morality episodes - you can have those in Stargate or Firefly as well.

    For me, Star Trek is a simple space adventure show, in which the protagonists have learned from and avoided the mistakes of humanitys past.


    DIS is in the same way a BSG-clone as "Stargate: Universe" is - in that they try to replicate the feel of the show, without actually copying the core concept. Essentially they wanted to lift the Battlestar and it's protagonist in their own respective universe, but keep the "realism" of the main ship and the flawed characters and their betrayals and drama. But on the way kinda' missed the point on why this works on BSG and is not so easy transferable to a universe with much more fantastic elements.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
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  7. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Meant to ask btw...where’d the illustrated av come from? They have been popping up and am curious.
     
  8. SPCTRE

    SPCTRE Badass Admiral

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    re: comparisons with TNG
     
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  9. cultcross

    cultcross A long time ago in a Galilee far far away Moderator

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    That's fair, and I'd argue that Discovery meets this point too - to the TOS level, at least, and with a few TNG high moralising moments in there ("Starfleet doesn't fire first"). They certainly didn't shy away from the frequent Trek trope of our moral heroes standing up to the amorality of their superiors, either.
     
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  10. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Discovery began with an act of mutiny in which the lead is sentenced, supposedly as an indication she did wrong. Yet it ends with the same character getting her own way by threatening mutiny again and getting a medal for it. I don't know what humanity is supposed to be proving here. They used a form of terrorism with L'Rell the vehicle to end the war. Humanity proves once again the bigger weapon wins the day.
     
  11. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The problem is, they then proceeded to whomp the shite out of those with Starfleet ideals that we like to see. Then they turned one of them into a war criminal (which incidentally is the part that put me off the show, and even though my opinion of it has improved, it still hasn’t fully recovered from. Not least as it wallowed in the grotesque.) before having her killed an eaten. Those idealised humans were mocked and made into meat, quite literally. Then we made heroes of characters that were weaker in their expression of those ideals. (Lorca and his heel turn does not change how he was portrayed for the first half, and everyone blindly follows his lead on stuff like the tardigrade etc. It’s a bit of a mess.)

    The ‘amorality of their superiors’ thing is also a mess for pretty much these same reasons. Especially as those superiors (Cornwell) were seen to arrive at their ‘amorality’ through brutalisation. At no point was there the equivalent of O’Briens ‘I don’t hate you Cardassian’ speech, and no one blinked at Empress Ming taking control at the end. It was a terrible mess. They have room to get things back on track, even with Mirror Georgiou perhaps, but there is also a danger of doubling down. Atm, it is a bit of a guagmire.
     
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  12. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Admiral

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    Those final three episodes sound like so much of a mess. Guess we'll watch them this weekend to see if they live up to their reputation. :eek:
     
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  13. jaime

    jaime Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I’d avoid having younglins in the room or watching during dinner. They aren’t as bad as their rep maybe, but they have a few issues shall we say xD
     
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  14. Rahul

    Rahul Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Let's just pretend that final episode of the season never happened...
    Like with Threshold, we're simply better off this way...
     
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  15. eschaton

    eschaton Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I disagree, except in a metaphorical sense.

    DS9 had very little exploration. Nonetheless, it in many ways held truer to the Trekkian format than VOY and ENT, insofar as many of the episodes focused upon a particular issue or theme and ran with it, rather than just being shallow action-adventure.

    Even if we want to wind it back to TOS, a lot of the episodes didn't really involve exploration, but shuttling around between "known" parts of the galaxy. This includes such classic episodes as Devil in the Dark, Charlie X, Dagger of the Mind, The Trouble With Tribbles, Amok Time, etc. The conceit of exploring new worlds was of course mostly dropped by TNG - the missions framing TNG stories more typically are things like shuttling ambassadors around.

    For me personally, that was when the wheels came off the bus. Up to that point I was basically thinking "Discovery has its flaws, but maybe it's going somewhere interesting." But in the last three episodes it becomes painfully clear they either didn't have a plan, or they were just very, very bad at writing out a season arc.
     
  16. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    There are two particular scenes in "Will You Take My Hand?" where you'll have to decide how old is your 11-year-old. A Klingon taking a piss (no members are shown) and Tilly getting high.
     
  17. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Admiral

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    I think from a maturity stand point, he'll handle them fine. Though I can imagine him rolling his eyes at them now. :lol:
     
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  18. 1001001

    1001001 Workin' Them Angels Moderator

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    Tilly Rules!!

    [​IMG]

    Carry on.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
  19. XCV330

    XCV330 Premium Member

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    The prior scene, hell that's awkward to me NOW. The second, honestly it's a pretty good life lesson to teach your kids. Keep your eyes on your stuff at all times, and don't trust strangers, especially creepy Orion dudes.
     
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  20. BillJ

    BillJ The King of Kings Admiral

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    Without Tilly and Stamets, the show would be unwatchable to me.