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Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x06 - "Lethe"

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[There are] hints ... Lorca might have been replaced.

Nonetheless, I have three big issues with the possibility.
1...
2...
3....
and, for me:
4. Taking the most potentially complex, nuanced, multi-layered (many will argue, rightfully, morally compromised) character navigating his way through extraordinary times, only to cop out and have him be a villain in a Mission Impossible mask, is just bad television.
 
and, for me:
4. Taking the most potentially complex, nuanced, multi-layered (many will argue, rightfully, morally compromised) character navigating his way through extraordinary times, only to cop out and have him be a villain in a Mission Impossible mask, is just bad television.

Jason Isaacs is certainly playing one of the most fascinating characters on the show now but I think it's wrong to think his story can continue indefinitely since we've already crossed the line of "should be removed from command and put in a mental hospital" several times.
 
I agree 100% with everything you've said. Really, honestly, I do. I get what they were doing--the writers--and yes, it is a very interesting subversion of the trope. But the problem I have, as I said, was the larger, meta-point: do the writers actually think I'm supposed to in any way, shape, or form feel a mutineer is worthy of anything other than utter and total contempt? They obviously do, else she would not be the protagonist and primary POV character. I think they are wrong, ethically and morally. And that is that.

The charge of mutiny as applied to Michael Burnham is a bit like saying killing the last manager of a K-Mart is genocide. It's a severely inappropriate charge and the fact people are taking it seriously makes it seem they've bought into Starfleet's narrative that is gross and self-serving. Michael Burnham is guilty of assaulting a superior officer and attempting to take over the ship but was in a compromised psychological state. She had just survived almost being murdered, was severely injured at the time, and had past traumatic stress. She was disabled and arrested before any lasting harm was done and immediately tried to make up for her actions by risking her life.

Starfleet rewarded her for this by putting her in prison for life and blaming their failure to avoid war with the Klingons (which was impossible anyway) on her.

It's revolting conduct unbecoming an offier...by Starfleet.
 
If you watch the news, it seems like reality to me.

I'll resist agreeing and instead point out it is part of the show's biggest problem that both Michelle Yeoh and Jason Isaacs are much much bigger actors than SMG.

Note I say "bigger" not necessarily better.

Their presence means that the prospect of removing both means the show feels like it would be diminished.
 
The charge of mutiny as applied to Michael Burnham is a bit like saying killing the last manager of a K-Mart is genocide. It's a severely inappropriate charge and the fact people are taking it seriously makes it seem they've bought into Starfleet's narrative that is gross and self-serving. Michael Burnham is guilty of assaulting a superior officer and attempting to take over the ship but was in a compromised psychological state. She had just survived almost being murdered, was severely injured at the time, and had past traumatic stress. She was disabled and arrested before any lasting harm was done and immediately tried to make up for her actions by risking her life.

Starfleet rewarded her for this by putting her in prison for life and blaming their failure to avoid war with the Klingons (which was impossible anyway) on her.

It's revolting conduct unbecoming an offier...by Starfleet.
Which means the motives of government doesn't change much in two hundred years. Ha!

*sad sigh*

I'll resist agreeing and instead point out it is part of the show's biggest problem that both Michelle Yeoh and Jason Isaacs are much much bigger actors than SMG.

Note I say "bigger" not necessarily better.

Their presence means that the prospect of removing both means the show feels like it would be diminished.
Well, Jason Isaacs' character still has plenty of room to maneuver.
 
This episode was mediocre. Besides the fact that they shouldn't have a holodeck (which was infuriating but I don't have the desire to rant about it right now), it just didn't really work. The story is poorly written, with the vulcans getting just completely misrepresented. There is no way they'd be that racist. Its not logical for one, and what the hell happened to IDIC? To go along with this, Sarek's actor is atrocious. Not just in comparison to the original actor, but in general. The federation stuff didn't really work, either. The klingons were completely dishonorable, but since they are klingons in name only its not unexpected. I liked the bits with Cadet Tilly and none of the starfleet characters outside of the admiral were especially obnoxious, so this still beats the abysmal episode 5. I'm probably being too kind to this episode after how bad last week's one was, but I'm rating this a 5/10. Not terrible, but pretty much the definition of mediocre.

All this said, I LOVE groundhog day type episodes, so hopefully Episode 7 is another good episode to go along with 2-4.
 
But yes, in serious terms, she absolutely deserves not to be in command or in any job revolving making decisions. However, a few years punishment with her as a prisoner doing work on the Discovery Project seems a fair sentence.

Ironically, her executing T'Kuvma seems like a much much more serious action but no one cares about that.
 
This episode was mediocre. Besides the fact that they shouldn't have a holodeck (which was infuriating but I don't have the desire to rant about it right now), it just didn't really work.

It's a holo paintball room, not a holodeck. You can actually make one of those today, if not completely.

The story is poorly written, with the vulcans getting just completely misrepresented. There is no way they'd be that racist. Its not logical for one, and what the hell happened to IDIC?

It's not "Vulcans", it's two Vulcans. One who doesn't want Michael and Spock and another who is a terrorist. I *LOVE* Vulcans but they're as enlightened a race as Roddenberry humanity.

To go along with this, Sarek's actor is atrocious. Not just in comparison to the original actor, but in general. The federation stuff didn't really work, either. The klingons were completely dishonorable, but since they are klingons in name only its not unexpected.

To be fair, this is Kor and he's been set up as far more dishonorable than T'Kuvma--who was unfortunately shown to be dishonorable himself.
 
And to add to that, Starfleet has some traditions that are more throwbacks to earlier navy practice (such as commodores). In this instance Starfleet also uses midshipmen on active duty. Kirk was a midshipman at the Academy, but Peter Preston was a midshipman on board Enterprise in a combat situation. I don't know if they use Cadet and Midshipman interchangeably, but it would seem Starfleet has a history of putting advanced trainees on active duty (Red Squad, etc).

At this point they don't even apparently require any kind of Academy training as Burnham was presumably also inducted as a midshipman rather than going to officer candidate training school.

I still know sailors who swear that getting rid of the commodore rank was akin to heresy and, to be honest, I see their point. Glad Starfleet kept the older rank.

As for Peter Preston, recall, it was only a training voyage. A glory trip. Only incidentally did it turn into a combat mission. Kirk even begged Starfleet to send someone else because all they had was "...a boatload of children."

At least in the US Navy, the terms "midshipman" and "cadet" are synonymous.

Burnham...yeah, I'm not sure what they did with her. Keep in mind, though, officer training school can be awfully quick. It's only a tad less than ten weeks in the AF unless the person already has a terminal degree in a profession, in which case it's a "whopping" five weeks. Navy OCS is 12 weeks. So it is possible she went through something like that and still got to Commander by the present day (in-universe). What we call a "fast burner/high-speed, low-drag," yeah, but...
 
Kor of House Kor was no stranger to dirty duplicitous deeds himself.

Actually, he was pretty straight forward. He told you exactly what the punishment was if you violated Klingon laws. It is actually funny, the two most honorable Klingons were probably Kor and Kang, and that was before "honor" became a Klingon trait.
 
Actually, he was pretty straight forward. He told you exactly what the punishment was if you violated Klingon laws. It is actually funny, the two most honorable Klingons were probably Kor and Kang, and that was before "honor" became a Klingon trait.

I always liked his portrayal in Deep Space Nine because I could easily believe this was the same man despite the different cultures.

"Honor...yeah, sure, whatever."
 
Burnham...yeah, I'm not sure what they did with her. Keep in mind, though, officer training school can be awfully quick. It's only a tad less than ten weeks in the AF unless the person already has a terminal degree in a profession, in which case it's a "whopping" five weeks. Navy OCS is 12 weeks. So it is possible she went through something like that and still got to Commander by the present day (in-universe). What we call a "fast burner/high-speed, low-drag," yeah, but...

I get the impression the Vulcan Science Academy may just be Vulcan Starfleet Academy if the Expeditionary Force is just Vulcan's space navy.
 
Perhaps, but there was that interesting beat in which the Vulcan leader challenged Sarek about why he hesitated to choose between Michael and Spock. Saying Michael would have betrayed that he felt more than he should, that his involvement in her life was more than an experiment. And over time, it proved to be a moment that Sarek didn't know Spock as well as he believed.

I found it illogical that Sarek would choose Spock in that moment. Michael is qualified and the offer is currently available. The situation could change in the coming years to also allow Spock in. Better one bird... But then again, Sarek has never been totally logical when it comes to his "kids".

...Saru kind of got the short end of the stick this episode, a few episodes in a row. I like Saru. But the writers need to do a bit more with him, soon, or he is at risk at becoming a one-trick-pony with his prey-stick...

So, nobody did a medical check-up for Ash Tyler/Voq before he was granted a position aboard the Federation's most important ship in the klingon war? After being a pow of the klingons? Holy hell do they suck at their job...

Saru got a good storyline in "Choose Your Pain": being acting captain, questioning his own decision making, making the hard decisions, acting angry and forceful, realizing that he was probably wrong, coming to a realization about himself, apologizing to Michael, and ordering Tardigrade released. All good stuff.

As another poster said, there is no evidence that he didn't undergo a medical checkup and it is totally in line with everything we have seen in Star Trek that he would have. Unless you are a captain and can order your doctor to stand down (and even then you don't always win), you are going to get an exam after kidnapping and torture. They even highlight its near certainty by having Cornwell mention Lorca's fitness and return to duty.

It's a dream.

Mind you, I think the reason her mutiny was an epic fail was due to the fact she wasn't strong enough to do the neck pinch.

There is no evidence that strength is required for the neck pinch.

I disagree, the first season of Enterprise was fine.

That said, the first two and a half seasons of DS9 were garbage.

The first season of Enterprise was not fine. On my personal rating scale, only 48% of the first season were above average (though that is better than DS9's season 1), and it included "Dear Doctor". By six episodes into season 2 (the terrible "Marauders") I bailed, despite originally intending to give the show 2 seasons to get good. And I watched all of Voyager as it aired.

Anyway, onto new issues. Can anyone please tell me what Ash Tyler's characterization is? The other characters began as basically one-note archetypes which have since deepened, but despite being in two episodes now, I can't for the life of me come up with one notable personality trait he has. Maybe this is intentional because he's actually Voq in disguise, but it seems highly unusual nonetheless, and makes him, if you take away the mystery of who he really is, the most boring character by far.

I think he is not flashy. He doesn't seem to be out of the ordinary in any way so far. Maybe it is because he is new and we haven't seen those parts of him, but he just doesn't have any particular quirk. But as for general characterization, he seems very warm, friendly, welcoming, and modest (e.g. the battle training with Lorca) - basically a good guy. Whether they are portraying him as to purposefully not stick out is anyone's guess. Though on a ship crewed with a bunch of people with specific, odd traits, he does stick out as the "Miles O'brien"-type regular guy.

One of my favorite Star Trek episodes of all time is DS9's "Take Me Out To The Holosuite," and we saw an entire ship full of Vulcans being bigoted. It's sad, but yeah, there are Vulcan bigots. I actually like that this is so, though. One of my favorite Trek novels is Diane Duane's "Spock's World," because it presented us an actual complex society that didn't always fall in line. Vulcans aren't the one note wonders some people think they are, and that was clear even in TOS. So this works, and it's consistent.

Actually, we only see the Captain of that Vulcan ship portrayed as bigoted. I don't think any of his crew even get a spoken line, and other than that they played baseball because their captain introduced it to them and encouraged them to play, we don't know what they are thinking. And if I remember correctly, a number of them are hanging out in Quark's during our heroes' celebration and don't seem to have any problem with it.

EAS' review

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/episodes/dis1.htm#lethe

Burnham mentions "Constitution-class ships like the Enterprise". There is a twofold irony in the reference to the "Constitution class". In TOS, this designation was never used, and the ship's dedication plaque read "Starship Class".

Wow.

Yeah, but the crew also served aboard a Star Fleet ship, served under the United Earth Space Probe Agency, and were supposed to share the Delta insignia among all "starship class" ships...but not all of those things remained unchanged as the series developed.

Off the top of my head:
Mr Robot
The Expanse
Man in the High Castle...

The Man in the High Castle is not better than Discovery. In season 1, the main characters were all boring and lame. Only the "villains" were good: Smith and Tagomi. In the second season, the story wanders around with Frank and the "resistance" not really having any plan or story, and Tagomi wastes all his storytime in the "alternate" US not really doing anything and not even questioning what the reality is - he just exists there. Truth be told, I was enjoying season 2 a little better, but haven't even been able to finish it yet.

...Much moreso than Michael, who somehow went from Ensign to Commander and First Officer in seven years, or Stamets, who's apparently forgotten he's in the military, or, certainly, Tilly who, as a cadet, just does not belong on a ship of the line...

First, we don't know what rank Michal had when joining Starfleet. With her training, maybe she started at Lt. And Discovery specifically isn't a ship of the line. It starts as an experimental science testbed ship. She is perfect for that assignment. And since the drive has been functional, Starfleet doesn't want so much use of Discovery in combat until they get the drive replicated, so it still isn't a ship of the line.

What if it's Lorca who was switched to a klingon (or brainwashed or something) in episode 5? ...

As others have pointed out, this makes no sense. If Lorca was brainwashed/replaced/Manchurian Candidated, as soon as he got to the Discovery he would have jumped Discovery somewhere for capture. Lorca can't be the spy.

...3. Most importantly, if Lorca has been replaced by a Klingon agent, the Klingons have already won! ..
Agreed.

...Many Pretty Young Things Officers got 'command experience' of a sort under Kirk...

If you mean women got command experience on Kirk's Enterprise. I agree. If you mean women got "command experience" under Kirk on the Enterprise. I totally disagree. Other than Rand there wasn't even a hint of that. And that was mostly because of "The Enemy Within".

...If she's an uber-genius, she's certainly not demonstrating it, yet. She's no more or less intelligent than any of the other uber-geniuses we've seen thus far on the ship, which appears to be the entire compliment...

But I think that is the point. The ship is staffed with the brightest for all the various disciplines. She doesn't have to exceed all the others to merit a spot, just exceed those who aren't placed on Discovery. And outside of the one three-person-powwow leading to creating the spore-DNA influser tech, no one has been shown to be doing any advanced technobable stuff. Despite having some technobable, this show has done a good job of having the problems and solutions be largely character driven and not "new magical particle" driven.
 
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