Lt.Kyle

[Dar70]

Moore wasn't on the Voyager staff until season 6, long after Tom was created.

As for Kyle- I suspect they basically combined the Asian transporter tech from The Cage, and Kyle from TOS, into one character. In-universe, they could be the same guy, they could be adoptive brothers, they could be a married couple... whatever.

You could be correct about that. GREAT observation and best theory i have heard so far. I like that idea. Much better than just some random guy named Kyle or it being the Kyle from TOS. Much more believable and we dont have to worry about suspension of disbelief to a point where is no longer suspended......no suspension required....lol

 

[TRON JA307020]

Ah i missed this post by you Dennis. Yes I find it interesting. I also would not be ok with M'bengas race being changed.

Well changing any established characters race would be idiotic and violate existing canon. If they decide to do that then this is a alternate reality. Which I believe we are watching anyway . They have changed too much for kurtzman trek to be in the prime timeline. I suspect when kurtzman finally leaves Trek a new person will say this was a divergent reality. With that said I believe that the Kyle that is in the transporter room in SNW is a different Kyle.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Well changing any established characters race would be idiotic and violate existing canon. If they decide to do that then this is a alternate reality. Which I believe we are watching anyway . They have changed too much for kurtzman trek to be in the prime timeline. I suspect when kurtzman finally leaves Trek a new person will say this was a divergent reality. With that said I believe that the Kyle that is in the transporter room in SNW is a different Kyle.

It's a new adaptation of the Prime timeline.

 

[TRON JA307020]

It's a new adaptation of the Prime timeline.

Which means that the original series as it happened no longer happened as we saw it. In this universe at least. It's quite obvious. TOS fit in with Bermans run exactly as it was even in its look. Kurtzman trek it does not fit at all in look, technology and let's admit it in story at times Too much has been changed that its become difficult to insert original trek into kurtmans version.

 

[F. King Daniel]

TOS fit in with Bermans run exactly as it was even in its look

No it didn't. Where were the human ESPers? Why could Kirk's Enterprise go to the rim of the galaxy and the centre, but for Next Gen it took a lifetime?

As said, SNW is a new adaptation but the same timeline in-universe. Broad strokes are the same, details not.

 

[TRON JA307020]

No it didn't. Where were the human ESPers? Why could Kirk's Enterprise go to the rim of the galaxy and the centre, but for Next Gen it took a lifetime?

As said, SNW is a new adaptation but the same timeline in-universe. Broad strokes are the same, details not.

Those are minor canon violations. TOS didn't have a set rule for warp speeds and how much distsnce they could traverse. The whole DNA of STD is completely different especially on look and technology. Its hard to determine that lets say STD in its first seasons technology is more primitive then TNG. It looks just as advanced and maybe more so. Also in series tech for STD is terrible in that hardly anything had changed in 900 years. What I mean by that is in nearly a thousand years the Disco crew easily learned the new tech and actually had better tech with the spore drive. So many inconsistencies.

 

[Jayson1]

I have a theory that the ease in which fans can accept continuity changes depends on how easy it is to explain it all away with head canon. Also people give more leeway to TOS than the Berman 24h century stuff because you had 3 shows basically set in the same time period and had tons of character, and prop and unifrom crossovers making the 24th century a little more detail than TOS.

In TOS we never even saw their present day earth or even knew the year it was set until Wrath of Khan. It was easy to just go with 'It was the 60's" and also 89 years in the past from the Berman stuff so people just ran with it. The main issue with Kyle is a race swap is hard to head canon away for those who want to pretend the universe is a real place and interconnected. Different accent as well.

People in the end will accept it because the show is good and that is all that matters and they will be content with even the most craziest of head canon reasons to explain it because the show is worth the effort. Just like people learn to accept James R Kirk, Eugenics War in the 60's and no female Starfleet Captains. Two of which has been retconned and the third could be as well if KIrk really does come on the show next year. I bet the retcon might even be a funny joke.

 

[TRON JA307020]

I have a theory that the ease in which fans can accept continuity changes depends on how easy it is to explain it all away with head canon. Also people give more leeway to TOS than the Berman 24h century stuff because you had 3 shows basically set in the same time period and had tons of character, and prop and unifrom crossovers making the 24th century a little more detail than TOS.

In TOS we never even saw their present day earth or even knew the year it was set until Wrath of Khan. It was easy to just go with 'It was the 60's" and also 89 years in the past from the Berman stuff so people just ran with it. The main issue with Kyle is a race swap is hard to head canon away for those who want to pretend the universe is a real place and interconnected. Different accent as well.

People in the end will accept it because the show is good and that is all that matters and they will be content with even the most craziest of head canon reasons to explain it because the show is worth the effort. Just like people learn to accept James R Kirk, Eugenics War in the 60's and no female Starfleet Captains. Two of which has been retconned and the third could be as well if KIrk really does come on the show next year. I bet the retcon might even be a funny joke.

We know the star trek universe is not real but for any story to be fun and make sense keeping canon as tight as possible is necessary. I don't think the kyle we are seeing is the same one but let's say it is. It would be a major canon violation and frankly stupid.

 

[fireproof78]

I have a theory that the ease in which fans can accept continuity changes depends on how easy it is to explain it all away with head canon. Also people give more leeway to TOS than the Berman 24h century stuff because you had 3 shows basically set in the same time period and had tons of character, and prop and unifrom crossovers making the 24th century a little more detail than TOS.

In TOS we never even saw their present day earth or even knew the year it was set until Wrath of Khan. It was easy to just go with 'It was the 60's" and also 89 years in the past from the Berman stuff so people just ran with it. The main issue with Kyle is a race swap is hard to head canon away for those who want to pretend the universe is a real place and interconnected. Different accent as well.

People in the end will accept it because the show is good and that is all that matters and they will be content with even the most craziest of head canon reasons to explain it because the show is worth the effort. Just like people learn to accept James R Kirk, Eugenics War in the 60's and no female Starfleet Captains. Two of which has been retconned and the third could be as well if KIrk really does come on the show next year. I bet the retcon might even be a funny joke.

Here's my really simjple continuity rule: TOS is a dramatic interpretation of events. It isn't strictly literal and treating it as such just leads to fights over continuity and canon status, which is becoming patently ridiculous.

Treating them as "real" means accepting some disparity, including recasting.

No it didn't. Where were the human ESPers? Why could Kirk's Enterprise go to the rim of the galaxy and the centre, but for Next Gen it took a lifetime?

As said, SNW is a new adaptation but the same timeline in-universe. Broad strokes are the same, details not.

That's my attitude as well. There are many inconsistencies and violations from TOS to TMP to TNG. They are "minor" in so far as people hand wave them away. But, if the same rules are applied then TOS must be separate from TNG in continuity, or TWOK is completely separate from TMP.

The hard and fast rules being applied are really difficult to sort when they are applied so inconsistently or past productions are grandfathered in.

Much more believable and we dont have to worry about suspension of disbelief to a point where is no longer suspended......no suspension required....lol

Rarely does my suspension get violated. And this is not one of those times.

 

[Campe]

We know the star trek universe is not real but for any story to be fun and make sense keeping canon as tight as possible is necessary.

I don’t think keeping Trek continuity as tight as possible makes it fun. It makes watching the show a chore. But I think there are those who take keeping continuity far too seriously.

 

[fireproof78]

I don’t think keeping Trek continuity as tight as possible makes it fun. It makes watching the show a chore. But I think there are those who take keeping continuity far too seriously.

I tend to agree. It becomes checklists rather than enjoyment. At least for me.

 

[Dar70]

I don’t think keeping Trek continuity as tight as possible makes it fun. It makes watching the show a chore. But I think there are those who take keeping continuity far too seriously.

I dont think anyone expects it to be airtight. But it should generally make sense both in a story aspect and visually....should it not???

 

[fireproof78]

I dont think anyone expects it to be airtight. But it should generally make sense both in a story aspect and visually....should it not???

I don't expect it, no. Otherwise Trek and I would have parted ways back in the 80s and 90s.

 

[Campe]

I dont think anyone expects it to be airtight. But it should generally make sense both in a story aspect and visually....should it not???

I think there comes a point where it’s “good enough.” I watch Star Trek, hell I watch anything to be entertained. I used to care far more about continuity and technology. Now I’m just in for escape. We are Star Trek fans. We came up with a metric ton of fan explanations as to why the Klingons looked differently between TOS and TMP ( prior to ENT’s half baked, eye rolling and frankly unnecessary answer to the question). Why can’t we deal with other perceived “continuity violations” similarly?

Edit: Also, keeping continuity tight was exactly the point @Pubert was making.

 

[fireproof78]

We are Star Trek fans. We came up with a metric ton of fan explanations as to why the Klingons looked differently between TOS and TMP ( prior to ENT’s half baked, eye rolling and frankly unnecessary answer to the question). Why can’t we deal with other perceived “continuity violations” similarly?

This is always my question. What made it different in the past vs. now? Did fans become more aware of these violations and that impacts enjoyment? Are we less imaginative? Are we less flexible if something lacks the same entertainment value as before so we become more critical?

I don't have the answers but this is my perception that the past wasn't better but there was more willingness to be imaginative with it.

 

[ToddCam]

I mean, for one thing he never acknowledges or thinks he did the wrong thing. He spends the entire episode of "The First Duty" rationalizing their use of an illegal flight maneuver, covering up their actions, and manipulating the rest of the time into abetting the cover-up. He has some decency insofar as he insists on taking primary responsibility for the other cadet's death and protects the rest of the team as best he can, but the guy never really thinks he did anything wrong.





I for one don't think the Maquis are a terrorist group. I think they're a morally legitimate response to Cardassian civilian militias operating with clandestine Cardassian state support and to which the Federation responded completely half-assedly, and with a legitimate right to secede from the UFP.

What I question in terms of what is irredeemable is, why can't a character over time come to understand their mistakes/crimes/whatever? He didn't murder anyone. One person was killed, due to his selfishness, etc., and he tried to get 4 others to go along with his cover up. Compared to a lot of other characters' actions, these are something that could be made part of a redemption arc. It's not like we had Locarno's POV extensively explored, or had a flash forward to him in his 70s saying, "Yep. I didn't do anything wrong." Why is he irredeemable? Why couldn't he grow and learn and realize he did a bad thing? And how do we know what he thought? He was a charismatic leader. Maybe he showed confidence to Wesley and the others because that's what he needed from them, but once the camera moved away he was overwhelmed with remorse. It's a lot of strange judgment on the potential character who only had a few minutes of screen time.

Re: The Maquis. Maybe I am misremembering, but didn't the Maquis do acts of terror? I also agree with the idea of self-determination, so have no issue with the secession of the colonies. I can believe that there can be a righteous motivation, and still call it terrorism. I would say Kira was a terrorist, even though she was rightly fighting a war of liberation against a population that had enslaved her world and killed and tortured an untold number of people over decades. But I don't think we can argue that the Bajoran Resistance wasn't, on some level, a terrorist group, as they targeted and killed civilians. If the Maquis committed similar acts, then I have no reluctance in calling it that either.

 

[ToddCam]

This is always my question. What made it different in the past vs. now? Did fans become more aware of these violations and that impacts enjoyment? Are we less imaginative? Are we less flexible if something lacks the same entertainment value as before so we become more critical?

I don't have the answers but this is my perception that the past wasn't better but there was more willingness to be imaginative with it.

It's probably influenced by the aging of the original non-legacy TNG fanbase, who were kids and teens when it came out, becoming cynical old adults in their 30s and 40s, and just following the old traditional of hating anything new. The TNG fanbase seems to have been much larger than the old TOS one, and it came of age in the era of the internet, so they can be so much louder.

Obviously there can be classic TOS fans still around and being extra angry about new Trek.

 

[Campe]

As someone who was a kid and teen when TNG and later series came out and certainly watched everything since TSFS first run, I think those cynical fans need to relax.

I’m all for not liking something if the quality isn’t what one expects or hopes for but when it comes to things like, “It doesn’t fit with Episode 136 of series 4!”? Just chill out. There are, at present, 841 episodes spread out across 42 seasons of 12 series, not to mention 13 films, all over 56 years. This whole thing holds together pretty well when you think about it.

 

[fireproof78]

It's probably influenced by the aging of the original non-legacy TNG fanbase, who were kids and teens when it came out, becoming cynical old adults in their 30s and 40s, and just following the old traditional of hating anything new. The TNG fanbase seems to have been much larger than the old TOS one, and it came of age in the era of the internet, so they can be so much louder.

Obviously there can be classic TOS fans still around and being extra angry about new Trek.

Probably. And certainly I had my own reactions against TNG and such vs. TOS.

But, honestly, I didn't care that much. Maybe that makes me a poor fan, or whatnot, but I'm just someone who would rather enjoy a series that find reasons that this doesn't measure up to that series.

Life's way to short for me to carry hate around for a TV series. And even shorter, if medical studies are any indication of what stress does to the body.

 

[ToddCam]

Probably. And certainly I had my own reactions against TNG and such vs. TOS.

But, honestly, I didn't care that much. Maybe that makes me a poor fan, or whatnot, but I'm just someone who would rather enjoy a series that find reasons that this doesn't measure up to that series.

Life's way to short for me to carry hate around for a TV series. And even shorter, if medical studies are any indication of what stress does to the body.

I was also one of those kids/teens during the debut of TNG, DS9, and VGR. I also don't care about these sorts of things much. Especially across shows. When I would collect inconsistencies back in the day, I loved to explore potential explanations. Like the old No-Prize with Marvel Comics. Nowadays, I usually don't even bother with that because I just think, it's fiction. Ultimately, none of it happened!