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Do you like the Discovery Klingon look?

Do you like the discovery Klingon look?

  • Hate it

    Votes: 26 46.4%
  • Love it

    Votes: 18 32.1%
  • Couldn’t care less

    Votes: 12 21.4%

  • Total voters
    56
And no one should care at this point, all I want is the "fans turn pro" to not grow a brain and give absurd reasons why the Klingons look the way they are. Again the general audience get it and understand who the Klingons are; whether appearing human looking with Fu Manchu mustaches to Space Wolfman, and now HR Giger-like, THEY GET IT. But when it comes to Trek fans its trivial, like simians scratching their skulls, so we get appalling episodes like "Trials and Tribble-ations" where our heroes from the future don't know what Klingons looked like in TOS??? I mean these Fans turn Pro had the engineer and the Chief Medical Officer expressing stunned, ridiculous looks. Wow. At least Odo felt appropriate.

I mean, I agree that it's silly to think that the writers have to somehow "explain" differences in Klingon makeup designs, but that scene in "Trials and Tribble-ations" was a joke. It as a fourth-wall-leaning joke, a wink to the audience to acknowledge that times and production capabilities had changed, and then let it go. And "Trials and Tribble-ations" is one of the most delightful, beloved episodes in all of ST and a loving tribute to TOS.

To be honest with you, when it comes to DS9 it's not saying a lot. Despite the love here and other forums, which to some represents the general consensus, it never captured the imaginations of the general audience.

DS9 was not as successful as TNG, this is true. But DS9 has achieved enormous success and reached higher levels of popularity in the ten years or so since it was released on Netflix. Which makes sense -- DS9 was in many ways a show ahead of its time with regards to its use of serialization and complex character arcs. It's a show that works better in some ways in the era of binge-watching.

Perhaps Fuller would have been a better choice for an original sci-fi show rather than a Star Trek prequel taking place ten years before TOS.

I mean, Bryan Fuller clearly had his problems, since he was fired from both Star Trek: Discovery and American Gods. But his decision to have a different design aesthetic from TOS and to not worry about maintaining strict continuity was not the issue -- the issues with Fuller had more to do with lack of budget discipline and time management.

Your quote here once again indicates that you refuse to accept the premise -- you refuse to judge DIS on how well it executes its creative goals, but instead judge it for not sharing your creative goals.

Wormhole and Sci,

The Klingon forehead question answered by ENT didn’t come out of a vacuum, it was preceded by years, if not decades, of the kind of discussions people are having about DISCO’s Klingons right now, so how are today’s discussions out of bounds, compared to the similar speculation of the past?

People whined for a short time after the Klingon makeup design changed for TMP, and then the whining was just not a meaningful thing. The majority of just accepted that the makeup design was different and suspended disbelief. The speculation you refer to was mostly just fun "what-if" speculations, not some sort of outraged refusal to accept that ST had changed Klingon designs without explanation.

That's the issue: The refusal to accept that DIS can have creative goals that differ from yours and that those goals can be just as legitimate as yours.

If creatives have unlimited freedom to do as they see fit, that means they don’t have to wait as long as past creatives did between The Motion Picture and ENT, or between DS9 and ENT to definitively explain the differences between prior Klingon depictions and theirs,

Dude, none of the creators involved in TMP, the TOS movies, TNG, DS9, VOY, the TNG movies, or ENT "had to wait" to explain why Klingons looked different in TMP than in TOS, or why they looked different in TSFS than in TMP. They chose not to explain the differences between those three versions of Klingons because maintaining strict continuity was not a creative goal of theirs. No one made them "wait."

If they did do it would fly in the face of the assertion/assumption that creatives, and the conglomerates they work for, can never be questioned.

Hold on now. You're using the rhetoric of political conflict to talk about subjective feelings of aesthetic pleasure from entertainment, as though Viacom has some sort of obligation of democratic accountability in what kind of Klingon makeup design they use in their TV shows. This is not a reasonable use of the rhetoric of political conflict. Creators do not work for us and are not accountable to us when they make a show, and "questioning" them as though there's a compelling public interest in regulating what Klingon makeup designs they use is, frankly, kind of a silly way to frame the issue.

Here's the difference between legitimate and illegitimate critique:

Art is a form of communication, and the ultimate purpose of art is to help you communicate with yourself. Art is always subject to critique. But legitimate critique lies in evaluating how well a work of art executed its own creative goals. Refusing to accept the premise and arguing that work of art shouldn't have had the creative goals that it had is generally not going to be a valid critique, with one broad exception.

The exception is this: About the only time it's legitimate to refuse to accept the premise and instead argue that work of art should not have had the creative goals that it had, is if you're making that argument out of some higher moral purpose. An extreme example would be that it's fine to argue that Triumph of the Will should not have had the creative goal of glorifying Adolf Hitler, and therefore fine to refuse to evaluate Triumph of the Will on the basis of how well it executed its creative goal. A less-extreme example would be to argue that, say, Gone With the Wind had an artistic goal of glorifying the South and whitewashing slavery, and that therefore you refuse to engage with Gone With the Wind.

But Star Trek: Discovery is not a work of fascist propaganda or slavery apologia. It is a work of art created to entertain a mass 2010s/2020s audience. And instead of allowing the premise and evaluating it on its own terms -- that is to say, evaluating it on the basis of how well it executes its creative goals -- you instead constantly critique it on the basis that you don't think it should have the creative goals it has. And you're not citing some higher moral purpose in arguing that DIS should not have the creative goals that it has -- you just don't like instances of discontinuity in alien makeup design or subjective artistic preferences such as production aesthetics. And instead of just acknowledging that there is a level of subjectivity to art and that something can be not to your taste but still valid, you tend to argue that that which is not to your taste (in the context of DIS, at least) is somehow invalid.

So, no, I don't think that that's a valid way to critique DIS.

As fans we are just supposed to consume everything they create without question or complaint, and only express how great everything is.

No. You could just do what most reasonable people do when they encounter a work of art whose creative goals they don't enjoy subjectively: You could just not watch it and let it go.

Of course, my views on the Klingons are subjective-I never said they weren’t,

And yet you frame your subjective preferences as being more valid than other subjective preferences.

and further I mentioned the Andorians in part to show I have some flexibility in being okay with or tolerating of some of the CBS Trek redesigns.

And yet instead of saying, "You know, I like some redesigns but not others, and it's just a matter of my subjective aesthetic preferences," you tried to frame one redesign as legitimate and one as not legitimate.

I don’t see what DISCO’s success, or relative, success has to do with the discussion.

The argument that the Klingon makeup redesign would alienate audiences was presented. The rebuttal to that argument is that this has not happened in reality. That is the extent to which the question of DIS's popularity is relevant: in confirming or rebutting the idea that certain subjective creative decisions would alienate the audience.

I surmise this point was brought up to basically say since it’s successful-i.e. the majority-like it, you have no right to say anything about it,

No one has questioned anyone's constitutional right to use their freedom of speech to denounce the Klingon makeup designs.

But the right to whine about that again and again and again over four years means others have the right to find it tiresome. Especially when it's not done from the position of allowing the premise.

Where did you miss what I mentioned DS9's "Blood Oath", and "Trials..." paved the way for ENT to explain things,

Have any of the ENT writers cited these episodes as their reason for deciding to explain the differences between the TOS Klingons and later Klingons?
 
Where did you miss what I mentioned DS9's "Blood Oath", and "Trials..." paved the way for ENT to explain things, because it became part of fandoms' consciousness? Instead of having the OG Klingons appear in "Blood Oath" as what they were in TOS they had ridges and bumps, wasn't necessary. "Trials..." had a genetic Khan-type Superman Doctor who had no clue Klingons looked that way in TOS. Inconsistencies doesn't have to be explained, in particular Klingons, because as I've gain knowledge from my dad and my brother Trek fans had accepted and created a solution for themselves of why Klingons looked different, Northern & Southern Hemisphere Klingons races, just to show viewers can rationalize what's on screen without the condescending explanation.

I was pointing out that what was shown in DS9 had nothing to do with the writers of ENT deciding to do an origin story for why the Klingons changed appearance from TOS to TMP.
 
It's no coincidence the explanation for the Klingon foreheads came in probably the most fanwank-filled season of Star Trek ever, the season which was geared at the die-hard fans who live and breathe Star Trek. And even then, that storyline is still considered by many fans to be one of the more controversial of Enterprise's final season. Disco is not aimed at such a crowd, their target is the casual fan or new fan who don't give a shit what Klingons looked like before or why they look different now. Don't expect an explanation until the next time there's a season dedicated to appeasing the rabid fanboys, which likely won't be happening until the last season before the franchise takes another siesta for a decade or so.

I stand accused and confess that I enjoyed ENT's fourth season a lot, and I had no problem with them providing an explanation for the Klingon forehead question, though I don't think they really needed Archer to be involved; then again, he was the series' lead so they had to do something with him.

As for DISCO while I do think the intention was to broaden the audience (and still is) they also didn't stray too far afield of those dreaded die-hards. Why set DISCO ten years before TOS? Why go back to the Klingons and create a Klingon War? Why go back to the Mirror Universe? Why make Burnham Spock's sister? Why base the Starship Discovery on an unused Enterprise design? Why fill DISCO with Easter Eggs right from the pilot on? I think DISCO wanted its cake by appealing to the die-hards but also eat it too by dispatching with the things about prior Trek they didn't like or wanted to do away with. Of course that's their right to do, but doing that, while still insisting that DISCO exists in the Prime Universe was bound to stoke some fandom complaints.

Arguably ENT's first season was more of a break than DISCO's was, and it also riled some fans, including myself. It took me a while to accept the NX-01 and I wasn't a fan of ENT's depiction of first contact between humans and Klingons, among other things. But still, ENT by creating the Suliban and Future Guy, among other things, surprisingly took more chances in the first season than DISCO did in terms of being its own thing.
 
The Wormhole,

I stand accused and confess that I enjoyed ENT's fourth season a lot, and I had no problem with them providing an explanation for the Klingon forehead question, though I don't think they really needed Archer to be involved; then again, he was the series' lead so they had to do something with him.

As for DISCO while I do think the intention was to broaden the audience (and still is) they also didn't stray too far afield of those dreaded die-hards. Why set DISCO ten years before TOS? Why go back to the Klingons and create a Klingon War? Why go back to the Mirror Universe? Why make Burnham Spock's sister? Why base the Starship Discovery on an unused Enterprise design? Why fill DISCO with Easter Eggs right from the pilot on? I think DISCO wanted its cake by appealing to the die-hards but also eat it too by dispatching with the things about prior Trek they didn't like or wanted to do away with. Of course that's their right to do, but doing that, while still insisting that DISCO exists in the Prime Universe was bound to stoke some fandom complaints.

Arguably ENT's first season was more of a break than DISCO's was, and it also riled some fans, including myself. It took me a while to accept the NX-01 and I wasn't a fan of ENT's depiction of first contact between humans and Klingons, among other things. But still, ENT by creating the Suliban and Future Guy, among other things, surprisingly took more chances in the first season than DISCO did in terms of being its own thing.

Sci,

Thank you for telling me what is legitimate critique, reasonable, and valid and what isn't. A question was asked about DISCO Klingons, I gave my answer. I didn't have to explain that answer, though I did give some explanation for why I felt the way I did, but that was in the spirit of just discussing a topic I find interesting. Your opinion is yours, and mine is mine. Yours is no more valid-despite your definitions-than mine is.
 
Sci,

Thank you for telling me what is legitimate critique, reasonable, and valid and what isn't.

You're welcome. Happy to help.

A question was asked about DISCO Klingons, I gave my answer. I didn't have to explain that answer, though I did give some explanation for why I felt the way I did, but that was in the spirit of just discussing a topic I find interesting. Your opinion is yours, and mine is mine. Yours is no more valid-despite your definitions-than mine is.

Nope. Refusing to allow the premise except in response to a higher moral consideration is not a valid critique. You may not enjoy something without refusing to allow the premise, but that's not how you framed your reaction.

ETA:

To refuse to allow the premise outside of a higher moral consideration, is to assert a kind of ownership over the material to which you are not entitled.
 
With as hot as this thread is. I wonder if a discussion about why some Romulans have ‘V’ shaped ridges and why others have smooth foreheads; would generate as much discussion.
a few years ago: perhaps. Nowadays not anymore, as Picard provided an answer most often those who care are fine with.

Why base the Starship Discovery on an unused Enterprise design?
that’s still puzzling me, as it’s a really obscure design that most fans won’t recognize and that was, imho, rejected for good reasons.
 
DarKush said:
Why base the Starship Discovery on an unused Enterprise design?

that’s still puzzling me, as it’s a really obscure design that most fans won’t recognize and that was, imho, rejected for good reasons.

Seems pretty obvious to me: They based the Discovery on the "Planet of the Titans" design because they liked the design.
 
Funny how a design they liked so much changed considerably from its initial reveal to what was eventually seen on screen.

BTW, just to be clear, I like DSC on its own merits. I just don’t find it a believable prequel to TOS. Oh, and Burnham sort of annoys me. Tilly annoyed me too but I’ve grown to like her character more as the show progressed.
 
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but also eat it too by dispatching with the things about prior Trek they didn't like or wanted to do away with.
This is a part of criticism that while legitimate I still don't get. Why is it when artists decide to change something they either "don't like it or want to do away with it?" Is there not another option that they simply wanted to provide their take on this idea? Same with the Klingons. Star Trek and Klingons go hand and hand in turns of public consciousness so Discovery revisiting while also inviting their artists to explore this alien culture was a creative opportunity rather than a doing away with things they don't like. At least in my opinion.
 
By this reasoning ANYTHING could be passed as Klingons. Fat dudes with coneheads? Klingons. 1 meter tall cyborgs with two heads? Klingons. Five-legged creatures with alopecia problems? Klingons. If it’s in the dialogue they can all be Klingons then?
where does it stop? Is a blob with eye a Klingon to you if the dialogue says it is?
We have frequently posting people here who say Vulcans can have purple skin and 5 eyes all of a sudden and they wouldn't care, might even appreciate this new art. :lol:

If they're identified as Klingons, then they're Klingons.
Aye... And if my grandma had wheels, she'd be a wagon!

With as hot as this thread is. I wonder if a discussion about why some Romulans have ‘V’ shaped ridges and why others have smooth foreheads; would generate as much discussion.
Someone hasn't seen PIC...
 
Someone hasn't seen PIC...
So, when Romulans showed up with V's on their foreheads it generated consternation and conflict amongst the fandom?

And, if Picard is a template would one line of dialog suffice in SNW to end this hand wringing debate over Klingon make up daring to be different?

We have frequently posting people here who say Vulcans can have purple skin and 5 eyes all of a sudden and they wouldn't care, might even appreciate this new art. :lol:
If humans can evolve in to salamanders why not?
 
also, can’t help but notice you ignored something that has been asked you a couple of times: where does it stop? Is a blob with eye a Klingon to you if the dialogue says it is?
We have frequently posting people here who say Vulcans can have purple skin and 5 eyes all of a sudden and they wouldn't care, might even appreciate this new art. :lol:
Hyperbole is never a good look.
 
a few years ago: perhaps. Nowadays not anymore, as Picard provided an answer most often those who care are fine with.
I looked it up. Eh, could be worse. Makes me wish Romulus didn’t blow up. A few episodes about the regions of the empire sounds fascinating. In the spirit of that ENT Vulcan three parter.
Someone hasn't seen PIC...
Oh yeah, mate. I’ve been hooked on The Expanse, Dark Matter, The Orville and The Last Kingdom. Haven’t had time for Captain Pecan.
 
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they seriously said yes though, something like 'fuck canon' and 'I only wanna be entertained'. makes sense that things can look and sound and be called whatever art you prefer this moment, and different in every episode, perhaps even in every scene XD
Well, I agree with the "fuck canon" part. Canon has become an enemy of good storytelling.

But, again, it's about the story and the adventure, not just make up interpretation.
 
So, when Romulans showed up with V's on their foreheads it generated consternation and conflict amongst the fandom?
to a point, yes. It was a very questionable decision that created issues on an established race. And we’re still talking about it more than 30 years later.

And, if Picard is a template would one line of dialog suffice in SNW to end this hand wringing debate over Klingon make up daring to be different?
totally? Obviously not. But it would help a lot.

Well, I agree with the "fuck canon" part. Canon has become an enemy of good storytelling.
no, it hasn’t. There is literally nothing you can’t do while respecting what has been established before and there is A LOT you couldn’t do without building on it. As @dupersuper correctly said, if you don’t want to follow a canon just do your own thing, like the Orville and many other shows are doing.
 
no, it hasn’t. There is literally nothing you can’t do while respecting what has been established before and there is A LOT you couldn’t do without building on it.
What else has a canon as deep as Trek's? Doctor Who? Because they NEVER violate continuity:lol:

Trek's been overdue a full reboot for decades. But a halfway one is what we've got, so whatever. "Broken Bow" explictly happened but "Affliction" and "Divergence" definitely didn't.
 
What else has a canon as deep as Trek's? Doctor Who? Because they NEVER violate continuity:lol:

Trek's been overdue a full reboot for decades. But a halfway one is what we've got, so whatever. "Broken Bow" explictly happened but "Affliction" and "Divergence" definitely didn't.

Broken Bow itself is a revision of established history. Recall in the TNG episode “First Contact”, Picard says that “disastrous first contact with the Klingons led to decades of war”.

You watch ENT and there is no war with the Klingons after Broken Bow. The history we the audience saw and the history Picard recites from TNG season 5 are incongruent.

The writers couldn’t keep it all straight. Or they just blame the TCW for the hiccups.
 
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