I would agree.
Do you like the Discovery Klingon look?
- Thread starter jackoverfull
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Wormhole and Sci,
The Klingon forehead question answered by ENT didn’t come out of a vacuum, it was preceded by years, if not decades, of the kind of discussions people are having about DISCO’s Klingons right now, so how are today’s discussions out of bounds, compared to the similar speculation of the past?
If creatives have unlimited freedom to do as they see fit, that means they don’t have to wait as long as past creatives did between The Motion Picture and ENT, or between DS9 and ENT to definitively explain the differences between prior Klingon depictions and theirs, and if they did so I wonder if some of the people who are defending the current DISCO Klingon designs will not themselves take issue with that decision?
If they did do it would fly in the face of the assertion/assumption that creatives, and the conglomerates they work for, can never be questioned. As fans we are just supposed to consume everything they create without question or complaint, and only express how great everything is. It’s a one-way street/relationship, and anything else is the conglomerates bowing to the fandom mob.
Of course, my views on the Klingons are subjective-I never said they weren’t, and further I mentioned the Andorians in part to show I have some flexibility in being okay with or tolerating of some of the CBS Trek redesigns. For the most part I’ve liked a lot of what CBS has created from a visual standpoint, however their Klingons were too big a break from what came before for me. When comparing the Klingons and Andorians I also made note that what bothers me about the Klingons is we have seen much more of them, their visual aesthetic is more firmly defined whereas there was a lot more room to play around with just about every other Trek alien species, including the Vulcans. It’s a very fair point to mention that the DISCO pilot used Klingonese, etc. to establish their take on Klingons, though I think The Motion Picture did this better because they didn’t need words, just the appearance of the Klingon battle cruiser informed the audience right off what species it was, and that was in keeping with the idea that movies, and television, are also a visual medium. Nothing was wrong with DISCO using Klingonese, mentioning “The Black Fleet”, or the death-howl, etc., but that’s three steps, or more taken, whereas The Motion Picture needed just one.
And while the Klingons indeed control an empire the prior series have generally-perhaps for budgetary reasons-not delved much into the diversity and variety of those empires; and arguably little of that has been done on DISCO too, which basically redesigned almost all the Klingons on that series to fit their design.
The creatives also are making subjective creative decisions, but there appears to be nothing wrong with that, for some. They are not held to the same standards, or rather pretensions, of ‘rationality’ in their decision making as a fan holding forth on a laptop.
I don’t see what DISCO’s success, or relative, success has to do with the discussion. I’ve bought all three seasons on home video, despite my gripes about the Klingon design. It’s not a deal breaker for me, however, it’s something I wish had gotten a redo, among other things on DISCO. I surmise this point was brought up to basically say since it’s successful-i.e. the majority-like it, you have no right to say anything about it, or that you’re wrong for disliking the Klingon redesign; which is another attempt to police discussion.
I definitely understand fan frustration, but for those who have issues with these debates, there’s no law saying you must participate in them. In various threads people are discussing the whole of Trek, some fifty plus years, so again, why is a four/five-year discussion or ‘complaining’ about DISCO’s Klingons so out of bounds?
The Klingon forehead question answered by ENT didn’t come out of a vacuum, it was preceded by years, if not decades, of the kind of discussions people are having about DISCO’s Klingons right now, so how are today’s discussions out of bounds, compared to the similar speculation of the past?
If creatives have unlimited freedom to do as they see fit, that means they don’t have to wait as long as past creatives did between The Motion Picture and ENT, or between DS9 and ENT to definitively explain the differences between prior Klingon depictions and theirs, and if they did so I wonder if some of the people who are defending the current DISCO Klingon designs will not themselves take issue with that decision?
If they did do it would fly in the face of the assertion/assumption that creatives, and the conglomerates they work for, can never be questioned. As fans we are just supposed to consume everything they create without question or complaint, and only express how great everything is. It’s a one-way street/relationship, and anything else is the conglomerates bowing to the fandom mob.
Of course, my views on the Klingons are subjective-I never said they weren’t, and further I mentioned the Andorians in part to show I have some flexibility in being okay with or tolerating of some of the CBS Trek redesigns. For the most part I’ve liked a lot of what CBS has created from a visual standpoint, however their Klingons were too big a break from what came before for me. When comparing the Klingons and Andorians I also made note that what bothers me about the Klingons is we have seen much more of them, their visual aesthetic is more firmly defined whereas there was a lot more room to play around with just about every other Trek alien species, including the Vulcans. It’s a very fair point to mention that the DISCO pilot used Klingonese, etc. to establish their take on Klingons, though I think The Motion Picture did this better because they didn’t need words, just the appearance of the Klingon battle cruiser informed the audience right off what species it was, and that was in keeping with the idea that movies, and television, are also a visual medium. Nothing was wrong with DISCO using Klingonese, mentioning “The Black Fleet”, or the death-howl, etc., but that’s three steps, or more taken, whereas The Motion Picture needed just one.
And while the Klingons indeed control an empire the prior series have generally-perhaps for budgetary reasons-not delved much into the diversity and variety of those empires; and arguably little of that has been done on DISCO too, which basically redesigned almost all the Klingons on that series to fit their design.
The creatives also are making subjective creative decisions, but there appears to be nothing wrong with that, for some. They are not held to the same standards, or rather pretensions, of ‘rationality’ in their decision making as a fan holding forth on a laptop.
I don’t see what DISCO’s success, or relative, success has to do with the discussion. I’ve bought all three seasons on home video, despite my gripes about the Klingon design. It’s not a deal breaker for me, however, it’s something I wish had gotten a redo, among other things on DISCO. I surmise this point was brought up to basically say since it’s successful-i.e. the majority-like it, you have no right to say anything about it, or that you’re wrong for disliking the Klingon redesign; which is another attempt to police discussion.
I definitely understand fan frustration, but for those who have issues with these debates, there’s no law saying you must participate in them. In various threads people are discussing the whole of Trek, some fifty plus years, so again, why is a four/five-year discussion or ‘complaining’ about DISCO’s Klingons so out of bounds?
The Discovery crew is relaxing on 32nd century space station K-7.
Burnham: Who ordered raktajino?
Waitress: The Klingons.
Burnham: Klingons?
Waitress: Over there, and over there. (points to TNG-style Klingons)
Saru: Those are Klingons?
Waitress: All right. You all have had enough drinks.
Burnham: Who ordered raktajino?
Waitress: The Klingons.
Burnham: Klingons?
Waitress: Over there, and over there. (points to TNG-style Klingons)
Saru: Those are Klingons?
Waitress: All right. You all have had enough drinks.
Here's my biggest difference-there is no effort to make peace with the changes. Instead, they are regarded as an outlier, and extreme change that should have never taken place. At least from what I have gathered of TMP discussions (I was not there so I don't know for sure) they tried to make it make sense. Fan discussion was centered around integrating new information rather than protesting the writers and production teams choices.
He was fired from American Gods, and dropped from two other shows under development around the same time. I know nothing for sure, but I presume he either had some sort of mental health or substance abuse issues, since he quickly pivoted from a darling boy in Hollywood to being totally unemployed for the last 4-5 years.
That whole friggin Enterprise three-parter could have been avoided if only DS9 decided to have Worf look like a TOS Klingon when he went back in time (something they actively considered).
Ultimately I think they lampshaded the change actively through Julian and Miles' dialogue because they thought it would be funny if they were bandying about fan theories. Which...it was. But as usual, people took it all too seriously.
Ultimately I think they lampshaded the change actively through Julian and Miles' dialogue because they thought it would be funny if they were bandying about fan theories. Which...it was. But as usual, people took it all too seriously.
Worf: Actually, all Klingons can change their forehead structure at will (Worf morphs into a TOS Klingon in some dodgy 1990s era CGI). Legend has it that Klingons gained this ability through ancestry from a gamma quadrant species.
(Everyone looks at Odo)
Odo: We're about to go to war with my people and you just never mentioned this before now?
Worf: It is not something that we discuss with outsiders.
Star Trek fans are known for many things. A sense of humor is not one of them.
It also pops up in several “best of Star Trek” lists in general.
I would be all for that kind of explanation. Instead we got zero.
precisely. It’s also interesting to note that SOME production decisions seem more open to debate than others: for example threshold is basically universally reviled as a bad piece of writing, as are parts of Star Trek V, while we get angry people defending some very questionable choices of recent Trek. While, of course, at the other extreme we get angry people attacking every little change and saying a new series will suck before watching it. all in all it’s probably mostly an effect of the heavily polarized times we live in.
it’s just your perception, for the most part.
I thought you were expressing agreement with Dukat’s theory on the Klingon makeup being created to hide Latif’s identity. If not, apologies.
It's no coincidence the explanation for the Klingon foreheads came in probably the most fanwank-filled season of Star Trek ever, the season which was geared at the die-hard fans who live and breathe Star Trek. And even then, that storyline is still considered by many fans to be one of the more controversial of Enterprise's final season. Disco is not aimed at such a crowd, their target is the casual fan or new fan who don't give a shit what Klingons looked like before or why they look different now. Don't expect an explanation until the next time there's a season dedicated to appeasing the rabid fanboys, which likely won't be happening until the last season before the franchise takes another siesta for a decade or so.
Really? Where is the making peace? Thus far I see demands for an explanation, telling the writers how incorrect they are, and ongoing debate of the lack of care by the production team. Compared to what I have seen of TMP and things like fan productions creating "hybrids" and "fusions" to integrate both TOS and TMP.
Nope. I don’t believe that was the reason, although I do understand where he’s coming from. I don’t believe that’s the reason simply because the production timeline doesn’t add up, as casting and story ideas likely weren’t as far ahead when the Klingon design was finalized. I do understand that one might have this kind of suspicion without this information, though.
nobody made “demands” and honestly I get the perception you are one of the most sensitive on the topic up here.
the producers, meanwhile, kinda backpedaled a bit on the design in season 2, something that made it much more acceptable to many.
lurk a bit in the can fix sections and you’ll discover that plenty of different explanations have been proposed over the last few years. The one you provided, or the one saying these are a separate Klingon phenotype that briefly got the upper hand after NOT being infected by the virus. Or the one saying they are only culturally Klingons, but actually one of their subjugated races. Or many more variations. Not unlike the explanations of the forehead issue before the augment virus.
How it "should" be strikes me as "demanding." If I am misreading then I apologize but that is my perception on the matter. And if I am sensitive then so be it. I'll not apologize for that.
Which is why we are still discussing it here. Got it.
In the what section?
I have no issue with fan explanations, none, zero, zilch, nada. What I have seen expressed in this particular discussion is a requirement that the writers should have offered an explanation in the text of the show itself, not seeking to work with what is presented on screen and combine it with previous lore.
damn autocorrect. Fan fic.In the what section?
Thank you. Was quite confused.
Where did you miss what I mentioned DS9's "Blood Oath", and "Trials..." paved the way for ENT to explain things, because it became part of fandoms' consciousness? Instead of having the OG Klingons appear in "Blood Oath" as what they were in TOS they had ridges and bumps, wasn't necessary. "Trials..." had a genetic Khan-type Superman Doctor who had no clue Klingons looked that way in TOS. Inconsistencies doesn't have to be explained, in particular Klingons, because as I've gain knowledge from my dad and my brother Trek fans had accepted and created a solution for themselves of why Klingons looked different, Northern & Southern Hemisphere Klingons races, just to show viewers can rationalize what's on screen without the condescending explanation.
That was my go to back in the day, I was going to write a novel, short story or something. I had drawn a map and assigned the different varients a geographic location. Of course back then there were only a handful. Search for Spock was the latest movie and TNG was a few years away. Still I gave the TMP Klingons a different locale than Kruge and his type. I has also decided the Homeworld was mostly ocean and the Klingons had a strong maritime culture. The vast distances between land accounted for the variation in Klingon appearance and even culture.
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