Do you like the Discovery Klingon look?

[Sci]

There's nothing wrong with being creative and having some artistic flair, but it's quite another to do a radical enough break in the visual style of a species that it does prompt these kind of debates.

Doing a radical break without explanation for not maintaining continuity with other people's TV shows is a completely legitimate creative choice.

Wanting/wishing for an explanation is not out of bounds here.

No, but constantly complaining about it for four years gets very tiresome.

I haven't been a fan much of the other DISCO visual rebooting when it comes to established species but there's way less to go on with say the Andorians than fifty something years of Klingons on screen, and a good 30 plus of the TOS movie/TNG aesthetic being the most prominent and dare say, 'definitive' look of the Klingons, until DISCO.

In other words, discontinuities in alien designs bother you sometimes and don't bother you other times and you're trying to rationalize holding them to different standards.

Star Trek is art, but it's also business, and to make such drastic changes can mess with the visual trigger of who the Klingons are supposed to be, and confuse the audience, therefore lowering enthusiasm, or causing needless griping that can get in the way of the story they want to tell or sell.

Hypothetically, but that is not what happened. Star Trek: Discovery is a very successful streaming show that has brought a solid base of subscribers to Paramount+ and keeps getting renewed. And when there was the threat of a delay in DIS S4's release outside the U.S. and Canada, there was a huge public backlash because so many people wanted to see the show.

Even the change from TOS to the Motion Picture look still had the Klingons in a familiar/familiar enough looking D7 so the audience-in-the-know knew right off that those were Klingons of some kind.

And "The Vulcan Hello" featured T'Kuvma speaking in Klingonese and used design elements like the traditional Klingon logo, so the audience knew right off that those were Klingons of some kind.

While Trek is not a documentary, the franchise has set out to attempt to make all of their series fit within the same continuity, which should be a brake on creative license as it were;

Nope. Current artists have no obligation whatsoever to adhere to the creative decisions made by artists in other productions.

CBS didn't have to insist that DISCO, or any of their Trek, was in the Prime Universe. But once they did so, to make it fit and sell the illusion that this fictional future, then a documentarians approach wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

It would not have been a bad thing at all! Maintaining strict continuity is a completely valid artistic choice.

And so is throwing continuity out the window.

I assume that's why Kirsten Beyer was working with the DISCO folks in part to bring her knowledge of the franchise to help make DISCO exist more easily alongside the other series.

Well, there have been interviews where Beyer and others have indeed asserted that she advised the showrunners and other writers on prior ST continuity. But that's not actually why she was working there. She was working there because she is a professional writer who got hired to join the writing staff of a major studio's TV show, and taking a job offer like that is the sort of thing you do when you're a professional writer trying to have a career in film or television.

As you said before you have an opinion, but so do I as well as other fans. If I don't like, or have quibbles, about something someone is trying to sell me, are we not supposed to voice them?

After four years? It's the same goddamn complaint over and over again. And it all boils down to a refusal to accept a work of art on its own terms with its own unique artistic goals and a desire to impose certain fans' subjective artistic goals instead. You might as well get angry at The Godfather for not being a good romantic comedy, or at Titanic for not being a good gangster movie.

So if DSC season 1 showed green amorphous blobs, but the dialogue states they are Klingons, you’d just automatically accept it without question?

I mean, yes, because if that's what they did, then that's what Klingons are in that show. But they didn't do that, so maybe we should try accepting a show's unique artistic goals and judge how well it achieves those goals, instead of trying to say that its goals should be different from the start? At a certain point, you have to allow the premise.

Enterprise stepped and addressed that change twenty-five years after it was made. If we're adhering to the precedent Enterprise has apparently set, then an explanation for the Disco Klingons isn't required any earlier than 2032. Which means no one has a right to complain about this matter for another eleven years.

That's precedent.

LOVE IT.

Backstage photos of the DSC Klingons were released before the show premiered. I can clearly recall the posts about those photos, and people questioning if those aliens were in fact Klingons despite the photo caption. That wouldn’t have happened if there was any doubt in John Q. Startrekfan’s mind that those aliens were indisputably Klingons.

The point is that if you want to make a prequel to TOS that takes place ten years before, you don’t radically change one of the main alien races (or their ships) to the point of unrecognizability.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with radically changing one of the main alien races (and their ships) to the point of unrecognizability.

Also, the complaint about the ships is the most ridiculous thing ever. Like, it's an interplanetary empire. They by definition must have billions, if not trillions, of people and thousands of cultures. There is no contradiction whatsoever in them having weird ship designs we haven't seen before and look different from ones we have. It's not like my apartment building looks anything like the White House, or like the White House looks anything like the Taj Mahal, or like the Taj Mahal looks anything like the Pyramids. And yet they were all created by Humans!

The producers of DSC figured this out by season 2, which is why the Klingons look more like they did in TNG (again without any explanation about the change)

They literally gave an explanation about the change.

But speaking of changes with no explanation -- how come Worf's ridges looked so different in TNG S1 vs S7? And why didn't his ridges change back in the flashback sequences of "All Good Things?"

While he lost me at “affront to Star Trek fans,” he does have a point that change for the sake of change is not progress.

Change for change's sake is a completely legitimate artistic impulse.

As for ‘art’: The new Klingon design had nothing to do with art. It had to do with them trying to hide the fact that Shazad Latif was playing both Tyler and Vok.

You are putting the cart before the horse here. Numerous sources have made it clear that the Klingon design was changed because Bryan Fuller felt that the old design was too familiar and that his version of the Klingons needed to look scarier and more alien in order to better embody the story he was telling about alienation and hatred and war. That is to say -- it was a decision made for artistic purposes.

 

[Dukhat]

Well don't talk about it it like it's fact then.

It was not a fact that Javid Iqbal doesn’t exist and Shazad Latif played both Tyler and Vok?

 

[Vger23]

No, but constantly complaining about it for four years gets very tiresome.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It was not a fact that Javid Iqbal doesn’t exist and Shazad Latif played both Tyler and Vok?

Yes, but it’s not a fact that the reason for the makeup redesign was to disguise the fact Latif was playing Voq and Tyler. Which is your contention. So let’s not play games here.

 

[Dukhat]

When exactly was Bryan Fuller no longer involved with DSC?

 

[fireproof78]

Then what was the question?

Were audiences confused after leaving TMP as to the alien race presented?

also, can’t help but notice you ignored something that has been asked you a couple of times: where does it stop? Is a blob with eye a Klingon to you if the dialogue says it is?

Potentially, yes. It would depend greatly on the dialog.

possibly. It must be pointed out that the very first shot before their appearance was of an unmistakably Klingon ship, though, something that discovery expressly avoided doing, as they gave their s1 D7 name to a ship that couldn’t look different from a d7.

But, if that's the case, then T'Kumva speaking Klingon is unmistakable. So what's the issue?

The ships are a non issue. The "D7" were also used by the Romulans in TOS. An interstellar empire having multiple ship types is welcome for me, because it shows diversity, rather than one style used everywhere.

are we forgetting that Star Trek 2009 gave Klingons helmets just to avoid addressing the look of their foreheads?

Since the Klingons were not major players in that story, as well as the time commitment for the make up (Into Darkness was a 4+ hour process for one actor) I don't see the issue. The Romulans used helmets to avoid having to use ears in Balance of Terror.

 

[Nerys Myk]

one might rightly suspect this. And yet many guessed the situation correctly immediately

So, in this scenario Fuller, Kurtzman and whom ever are batting around ideas for DISCO and someone comes up with the idea of having Klingon disguised as a Starfleet officer cast with an actor who plays both characters. And they decide the most logical, effective and efficient way to do this is redesign the Klingon makeup not just for him, but for every one playing a Klingon, so no one will guess their oh so clever plot twist? At that point they call Glenn Hetrick and give him the word to go hog wild on the Klingon design?

 

[eschaton]

Since the Klingons were not major players in that story, as well as the time commitment for the make up (Into Darkness was a 4+ hour process for one actor) I don't see the issue. The Romulans used helmets to avoid having to use ears in Balance of Terror.

Reportedly the "lead Klingon" was only totally bald because his hair kept getting caught on the helmet when he took it off, so they decided to go bald. And indeed, you can see hair under the helmets of some of the background Klingons. He was just supposed to be a Klingon who happened to be bald, nothing less or more.

But unfortunately, Fuller liked the look so much he decided to make all the Klingons bald for Discovery.

IMHO the biggest reason why it's pretty clear that the change had nothing to do with the whole Voq/Ash Tyler thing is that we know it was Fuller's choice, and that he pissed away a lot of money on prop-making and design choices before a single shot was filmed (he was fired before episode 1 even commenced filming). Plus IIRC Latif was initially hired to play Kol, which suggests when casting was done the actual roles were not yet nailed down.

 

[Dukhat]

Why not? If they were already going to change the Klingon design, then change it in such a way that it fits with the premise of concealing from the audience that one actor is playing two roles.

 

[Tuskin38]

as they gave their s1 D7 name to a ship that couldn’t look different from a d7.

I still don't think that was intentional blunder. It was probably a writer just throwing the name in as a reference. Most of the Klingon ships had actual Klingon names created for the show by Kirsten, but they were never used for whatever reason.

 

[Nerys Myk]

When exactly was Bryan Fuller no longer involved with DSC?

November 2016.

 

[XCV330]

Could have done without the double-streams scene. Building off one throwaway line in a previous episode is where Trek often makes really bad wrong turns.

I wouldn't have minded the Klingons being totally alien, only they never were before. Part of the point of Klingons in the story telling was that they were like humans but reflecting some of our worst, and rarely best, facets. Also they're supposed to be able to breed with humans. I'm glad most of the Fullerisms are done with. In my head I can chalk it up to Klingons are REALLY shallow and constantly having work done, and "the look" tends to change with fashion. I can get that. Klingons like to bling out.

 

[eschaton]

Why not? If they were already going to change the Klingon design, then change it in such a way that it fits with the premise of concealing from the audience that one actor is playing two roles.

Again, we know production design happened prior to Fuller leaving the show - including the Klingon redesign.

We know that nothing remained from Fuller's original vision other than some elements of the first two episodes however. The original script for Episode 3 was entirely pulped. We know he wanted the tardigrade to be a crew member, and Lorca wasn't supposed to be from the MU. We can't presume the idea for "Ash Tyler" existed at all when he was fired.

 

[Dukhat]

Again, we know production design happened prior to Fuller leaving the show - including the Klingon redesign.

We know that nothing remained from Fuller's original vision other than some elements of the first two episodes however. The original script for Episode 3 was entirely pulped. We know he wanted the tardigrade to be a crew member, and Lorca wasn't supposed to be from the MU. We can't presume the idea for "Ash Tyler" existed at all when he was fired.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Tuskin38]

While the idea to redesign the Klingon look came from Fuller, it's possible the final design of it was dictated by the needs of the story.

But this is all speculation.

 

[XCV330]

The makeup change may have been done to support Javid Iqbal, a very real actor who actually looks like what some people think a Klingon looks like. I am just glad we got to see the extremely talented and very real actor who other actors know, who still has a twitter account and is a friend of Bernie Sanders these days.

 

[fireproof78]

Reportedly the "lead Klingon" was only totally bald because his hair kept getting caught on the helmet when he took it off, so they decided to go bald. And indeed, you can see hair under the helmets of some of the background Klingons. He was just supposed to be a Klingon who happened to be bald, nothing less or more.

Indeed. Looking at the production design and the extras shows a great amount of variety. Into Darkness had some great Klingon looks.

But unfortunately, Fuller liked the look so much he decided to make all the Klingons bald for Discovery.

Well, Chang also looks badass.

IMHO the biggest reason why it's pretty clear that the change had nothing to do with the whole Voq/Ash Tyler thing is that we know it was Fuller's choice, and that he pissed away a lot of money on prop-making and design choices before a single shot was filmed

Yup. Fuller spent a lot of money and it was not reasonable to go back and redo it all.

 

[jackoverfull]

Were audiences confused after leaving TMP as to the alien race presented?

probably not. Did some of them still discuss the issue for a couple of decades, though?

Potentially, yes. It would depend greatly on the dialog.

I see. Then visual continuity is irrelevant for you. Not for many, though.

The ships are a non issue. The "D7" were also used by the Romulans in TOS. An interstellar empire having multiple ship types is welcome for me, because it shows diversity, rather than one style used everywhere.

the issue was using the D7 name for something that didn’t look at all like a D7. I’m all for having a variety of ships for each culture, actually.

So, in this scenario Fuller, Kurtzman and whom ever are batting around ideas for DISCO and someone comes up with the idea of having Klingon disguised as a Starfleet officer cast with an actor who plays both characters. And they decide the most logical, effective and efficient way to do this is redesign the Klingon makeup not just for him, but for every one playing a Klingon, so no one will guess their oh so clever plot twist? At that point they call Glenn Hetrick and give him the word to go hog wild on the Klingon design?

this is not what I wrote.

I still don't think that was intentional blunder. It was probably a writer just throwing the name in as a reference.

I agree: I think the writer wanted to see a D7 but failed to communicate it to the VFX team.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I like the design of the DSC Klingons second only to the way they appeared in TMP. They were something more alien and threatening in those designs. My third favorite iteration was in Star Trek Into Darkness for those same reasons.

I'm not sure why anyone would care at this point. They've been through so many redesigns, it's just part of how things work.

And no one should care at this point, all I want is the "fans turn pro" to not grow a brain and give absurd reasons why the Klingons look the way they are. Again the general audience get it and understand who the Klingons are; whether appearing human looking with Fu Manchu mustaches to Space Wolfman, and now HR Giger-like, THEY GET IT. But when it comes to Trek fans its trivial, like simians scratching their skulls, so we get appalling episodes like "Trials and Tribble-ations" where our heroes from the future don't know what Klingons looked like in TOS??? I mean these Fans turn Pro had the engineer and the Chief Medical Officer expressing stunned, ridiculous looks. Wow. At least Odo felt appropriate.

 

[fireproof78]

probably not. Did some of them still discuss the issue for a couple of decades, though?

No clue.

I see. Then visual continuity is irrelevant for you. Not for many, though.

Not irrelevant. But it is not the primarily reason why I watch the made up show about fictional aliens and space ships.

the issue was using the D7 name for something that didn’t look at all like a D7. I’m all for having a variety of ships for each culture, actually.

So? The D7 designation could refer to multiple things. Not seeing the issue, but that's probably because I'm an obstinate idiot fan (with all due credit to @Nerys Myk ).