Why didn't they pair up Chakotay and Janeway in the end?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Mr. Scott, Jul 9, 2010.

  1. catshadowsi8

    catshadowsi8 Captain Captain

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    Watch what? Its the final episode. No one is watching because the show is over. And, fyi, i was not a J/C fan at the time so it's not because I cared one way or the other about them.

    i still stand by my statement that if she had to take a lover (75 years is heck of a long time to live like a nun) it would probably only have worked with Chakotay as they are more equals than anyone else on the ship. The rest are clearly subordinates. As for arguments...


    1. Janeway herself admits in The Disease that she expects Chakotay to question her in private and he says he does so regularly. We just don't see it often though it does crop up in episodes like Hope and Fear, The Omega Directive or Unimatrix Zero.

    I do think there might have been some issues here and there if they became romantically involved but that's what makes great love stories interesting. Some angst is a good thing. Happily ever after rarely works on TV.

    2. This is probably the only reason that would make sense except it is basically shot down in Life Line when she gets angry about the admiral asking about the Maquis. Clearly it is not an issue for her at all so it can't be a deterrent.

    Imo the only reason this doesn't happen is because Janeway is a woman. If the roles were reversed J/C would probably have happened. Heck, Chakotay had a relationship with a member of his crew while Captain....Seska. Hate the idea of a double standard but life is what it is.

    I also totally agree Janeway had no interest at all after season 3. That ship had sailed so to speak.
     
  2. Sophie74656

    Sophie74656 Commodore Commodore

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    I agree that if they did end up on a 75 year Voyage Janeway would NEED a "companion", and yes nobody but Chakotay makes sense. But I thinknit would take her so long to come to accept a relationship that he would already be involved with someone else

    Are you reading the novels?
    janeway and chakotay do get together but its not smooth sailing. They don't seem to have the kind of trust in each other that a couple does. Chakotay has lied to her about things
     
  3. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    More recent Novels...

    Year of Hell Janeway made it into the regular universe, and by 2381 has a kid, and meets regular childless Janeway. Never fear! Temporal Investigations are on the case!
     
  4. cosmic mouse

    cosmic mouse Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yes, there is a double standard of sorts regarding Janeway's lack of relationship since she is a female Captain. I agree that if the genders were reversed the Captain would probably have taken a partner or it would have been hinted at far more strongly anyway.

    Double standards generally suck imho, but the fact that they do exist means that progress is being made (per people thinking and conversing about such issues and ultimately working to move beyond them), even if it is moving at a gastropod pace. Some of the double standards involving gender roles will hopefully be a thing of the past within the next generation or two.
    That said I can understand why Mulgrew wanted to avoid certain stereotypes as Captain, but not all of them are necessarily "bad" and at times avoidance of a "type" can seem disingenuous or staged...

    I agree with those saying that her taking a partner since their journey was supposed to have been 70 years more logical than remaining aloof and unattached for the rest of her days. And I can see the "logic" (if that's a word that can be ascribed to an act or situation that is usually at odds with overt logic) in that person being Chakotay, but they just weren't having it in the series. I felt little to no chemistry between them in the early years (God knows, Chak tried in multiple instances, but Janeway just wasn't getting her groove on with him), but in later years there was ziltch. That's partly why I was so hep for Kashyk when he came along. Janeway had far more chemistry with him than with any other (and I know there are people who disagree with me, but to my eye the sexual tension was obvious and achieved in a reasonable manner per the episode's build-up), but of course he was whisked back into the nether regions of the DQ never to be seen again. I definitely would have written him into subsequent eps, but no one consulted me back when I was a nobody- 20-something (and also not even watching the series back in those days), ha ha.
     
  5. cosmic mouse

    cosmic mouse Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Was this scene ever filmed? (just curious)...
     
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In the lap of squalor I assure you.
    Kathryn was engaged to a courageous alphamale for the first four seasons.

    Leave her alone.
     
  7. Sophie74656

    Sophie74656 Commodore Commodore

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    There was supposedly a scene filmed where they kiss....I've never seen it and I've been looking for it.
     
  8. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I have noticed - and highly appreciated, btw - how light producers/writers have written on C/7. Indeed, we were witnessing the beginnings of Chakotay and Seven as a couple in Endgame - part 1, while in the 2nd part, both as a couple was almost totally absent. Was it because they have guessed correctly that this unexpected event wouldn't be joyfully welcome by all fans?! ;-) In the same time, let's be honest, the two Janeways (from the present and from the future) had enough on the plate to fill the time and space, hadn't they?! :-)

    Yes, Janeway and Chakotay were the most logical choice to form a couple BUT according to what I saw, love was one way, from Chakotay's side, while Janeway was well accommodated ‎over the years, with some "one-night-stand with Michael, the charming Irish holocharacter and some random encounters with true living being like Jaffen, Krashyyk (I'm pretty sure that both would have ended as lovers if they have met again).
    -> it seems to me that the trust Janeway and Chakotay had in each other has faded gradually after the events in Scorpion and Equinox, where their disagreements were particularly violent. And the fact that Chakotay chose not only to hide his "romance" with Seven at the end, while before, he has never been shy to share with Janeway, his introspective comments or ask about her love life etc... ) but too, to spend less time , like lunches or dinnes rwith her, while before he was so quick to take advantage of every opportunity to spend more time with her beloved friend, was quite informative on the state of their relationship.

    Well, if KJ/C romantic relationship was conducted like BT/TP, sorry but it would quickly become boring. :-( Don't get me wrong, I like Tom Paris as individual with his strengths and weaknesses but for me, when his romance with Torres became serious, he became annoying..., without forgetting to mention that I still don't see them ‎going well together.

    Regardless the sympathy Janeway can feel towards Chakotay and his former crew, Starfleet is not obligated to follow her convictions on this issue and besides, they clearly didn't. By cons, Admirals were reasonable enough to leave Janeway some autonomy in the management of her crew the time where her vessel, Voyager, was stuck in DQ, especially if the said renegades/felons helped her to find the way back ("no matter how, only the result counts",right?!). That being said, once back on AQ, Starfleet will take again the reindeers and Janeway will again be under the orders of bunch of higher ranks. Result: she will not only be asked to account on some of her potentially questionable actions but decisions too, including her choice to entrust vital positions on board to criminals (= Chakotay as XO, B'Elena Torres as Chief of Engineering Dpt, Ayala to second Tuvok in the Security Dpt, etc...), which could have endangered the safety of the ship and Starfleet crew, in the case of a potential mutiny led by Chakotay -> even if I'm pretty sure that any attempt by our Angry Warrior and his henchmen to take control of Voyager would have failed, it would not have done without significant damage and potential ‎injuries or casualties on board, for which Janeway would be held personally and rightly responsible for.
    And of course, you can be sure that there will be at least one admiral or Janeway's peers who will question Janeway about the nature of her relationship with the leader of the Maquis, especially if rumors of a love affair had eventually transpired (cf to crew's logs/ ‎letters addressed to families).
    -> even if Chakotay wasn't strictly speaking a subordinate as seeing as he has left Starfleet, he acted as such, in accepting to be Janeway's Second in Command. So, the policy about the (non) fraternization applied to their situation : Janeway acting as her superior, she could not give in to his advances unless she wanted to put herself at fault, fault would have been aggravated if Chakotay's criminal status was maintained = court-martial assured and resignation requested! As for Chakotay, the little love affair could aggravate his situation because 1) as a former Starfleet officer, he was not unaware of the settlement/rule of (non)fraternization with a superior and 2) he would have been accused of trying by this approach of using Janeway to reach his goals.

    (all this, I say it from experience)

    With Seska, Janeway (even if nothing happened, he tried to seduce her even after she told him that she was already engaged in s1 then after the break-up with her fiancé in s4, he kept trying Janeway but still without success) and finally, Seven, Chakotay demonstrated how the rules mattered little to him, especially in term of ‎looking for his half. That's why, I wouldn't be surprised if between Janeway's refusal and Seven, he had lived some regurlar one-night-stands with some female member of the crew and especially as he did not let the female gender insensitive! ;-)

    I'm forced to recognize that Janeways's reaction at the end of "Resolutions", once both had returned to the ship, was all the same quite cruel. Maybe should she have talked to him in private, in her Ready Room, to explain again that she was held by her role of captain and her mission to find a return path and nothing could happen between them that would disrupt her captaincy and mission. Instead, she prefered to return to the routine without any regret (in fact, she was quite happy to regain her seat!) or even thought about what/how they have lived on this unknown planet.
     
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  9. catshadowsi8

    catshadowsi8 Captain Captain

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    They had only been on one date, then a second. I don't see it as hiding, more like sudden and he hadn't told her yet. Heck, my sons never let me know when they go on their first few dates because who knows if it will work or not and we are very close.

    Agreed with the rest of your post but you lose me here. Knowing they had very little chance to get home seems to make the Maquis a mute point in the story. 75 years...no way anyone on that ship is thinking about Star Fleet consequences. In fact Janeway is stunned and angry in Life Line to find Star Fleet still sees them as Maquis. Clearly it's not on her mind and we are at the end of season 6 at this point. Same episode Chakotay point blank says it will be years before they have to deal with it which makes Janeway smile.

    Realistically, they will be old by the time they get home and no one will care. Trapped in the Delta Quadant! They served hard time trapped on a single ship, away from friends and family. They also get a reduced sentence for good behavior because the world moved on without them.

    Tjmo though. I understand your agrument against that idea and respect it.
     
  10. Catarina

    Catarina Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Whether they trust each other or not has been a dizzying follow for me. It seems they don't yet she says, twice defending chakotay "no one I trust more" I wish they'd make up their minds where Janeway stands. We all change but come on. I feel like they don't know what to do with her and now they just do it for drama (books)
     
  11. catshadowsi8

    catshadowsi8 Captain Captain

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    Books are not canon so they actually don't affect my opinion of a character. They are essentially written by people who desire a certain outcome so they write it. They are the same as fan fiction imo and are not supported by the owner of the material. Its why we have Chakotay paired with more than one character depending on the author and 7 paired with Janeway or Chakotay in others (or so I've heard). They are probably fun to read ( I don't personally have time to read anything longer than a post in my life right now unfortunately) but not something i consider.
     
  12. Catarina

    Catarina Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I suppose I'm getting rather defensive over something that 1. is not cannon and 2. I don't even read anymore. :)
     
  13. catshadowsi8

    catshadowsi8 Captain Captain

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    I didn't think you were defensive at all. I also feel Janeway was played on and off during the final season. Not sure why but it was like riding a roller coaster at times.
     
  14. Sophie74656

    Sophie74656 Commodore Commodore

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    If I may, i would highly recommend the new books :)
     
  15. Catarina

    Catarina Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So I've been told. Perhaps I should. It might get my creative flow back. I like to write and draw.
     
  16. Sophie74656

    Sophie74656 Commodore Commodore

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    I really enjoyed them, especially the ones written by Kristen Beyer
     
  17. Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME

    Ghislaine H. B. BRAEME Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Here we are not dealing with two teenagers ‎living their first love, ‎although in the case of Seven... No, here we talk about 2 consenting adults, stuck amound who have knowingly committed to a relationship, even if they are only at the beginning and whatever the reasons for such affairs (continuing to recover her humanity for Seven, which means maybe to experience the feeling of love/date AND for Chakotay, to finally find someone for sex or maybe more if affinities). ‎
    But one thing is sure, whatever the result that Chakotay and Seven will want given to their love story, that will end by a wedding or a fiasco and the one who will manage the consequences*, will be Janeway, as well Captain and as their friend.

    * Indeed, according to 'Endgame' :

    1) Seven's death made Chakotay so upset that he has not been the same afterwards. Although he kept fulfill his role of second in command, he was certainly less efficient and Janeway could also no longer rely on his trusted friend, Tuvok to take Chakotay's place anymore due to his illness. Result: Janeway has practically done the job alone. No wonder it took 75 years for Voyager to find the way back!

    2) what was not mentioned in the episode, was that C/7's relationship could equally displeased the crew and create new tensions and jalousy (Seven was already considered as Janeway's favourite, with her relation with Chakotay, she could be accused to be the darling of commanding officers. As for Chakotay, he could be accused of having chosen a Borg for girlfriend then spouse and in the workplace, to ‎play favorites
    -> ‎in absolute, what would happen if Janeway had to face complaints filed by a part of the crew about the C/7's relationship? I mean Starfleet crew needed a period of adjustment with the Maquis at the beginning but well,, for lack of accepting the rebels totally, they ended to bear the situation but we saw that for Seven, even 4 years after her arrival, her presence aboard was still criticized by both brews (Starfleet & Maquis).

    Catshadowsi8, you said that Chakotay's silent was normal because it was the beginning of his relationship with Seven but in Endgame's cut scenes, it seems that there was a key scene where, while Chakotay & Adm. Janeway shared a moment alone in Janaeway's Ready Room or quarters, the "old" Janeway questionned Chakotay about his love life, and the latter seemed surprised to find out that she was aware of what's happening between him and Seven. What does it mean? That even after having the certainty that what he was living with Seven was serious, Chakotay chose to hide to the young Janeway, his friend and commanding officer by the way, his relationship with Seven for as long as possible (while he was never shy to question freely her love life, pushing for answers!), even maybe until asking her to marry them...unless she learnt the news before celebrating the wedding, from Tuvok's mouth, our Chief of Security who always had an attentive hearing about what was happening on board.

    Janeway being a woman of principles and who when she gives her confidence and trust to people, she fairly expect the same courtesy. After the event of Scorpion, Equinox and Endgame, it is clear for me that the trust isn't shared anymore. Worst, this has given way to distrust toward each other. Knowing that, how could it be possible to Janeway to give a chance to Chakotay to seduce her again (Trust or confidence being essential in‎a loving relationship?)
     
  18. Sophie74656

    Sophie74656 Commodore Commodore

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    They were only on their second date but rhe dialogue implied they already had deep feelings for each other
     
  19. Catarina

    Catarina Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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  20. Sophie74656

    Sophie74656 Commodore Commodore

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    Was that a video? My phone won't let me open it. Do you have a direct link?