Spoilers Strange New Worlds General Discussion Thread

[cooleddie74]

Berserker would like to make some warp.

 

[eschaton]

I think we get a good idea of who Edith is, what she stands for and why Kirk would be attracted to her. The writers make good use of the "short story" format to convey what the viewer needs to know.

I think the secret to the episode though is we can all empathize with Kirk. What if we had to choose between saving all of mankind, and someone we love? What would we do? Could we make the tough choice?

The particularities of Keeler are less important, as is the dynamics of their relationship.

I dunno. Paradise Syndrome is a take on the same theme. One of our regulars leading a different life. It also ends on a down note. So I can see Kirk in the Inner Light and it hitting in much the same way. TNG and TOS aren't that far apart.

The Paradise Syndrome is a slow-paced (some would say garbage) Season 3 episode though. That's my point. TOS could have done it, but if they did, it would be viewed as a mediocre outing. It had to be Stewart's Picard for the full impact.

It's not one of my favorites but I don't understand your reasoning as once they're all in 1930, the story shifts to SHOWING Kirk and Edith falling in love; an Kirk after knowing what must be done to correct the timeline still struggles with it greatly to the point he saves her from falling down a flight of stairs, which would have probably killed her. In the scene where Edith is ultimately killed in the traffic accident; they do a closeup of Kirk's VERY emotional response, and when they been back to the ship Kirk says, "Let's get the hell out of here."
^^^
And I bolded hell because in 1967 that's a word that any network censor would immediately flag - and Networks might get a letter from viewers about - but the line was fought for, and viewed in context of the story, the censors allowed it to be uttered.

CotEoF is DEFINITLY a emotional Kirk centered story about the trauma Kirk went though personally in losing Edith Keeler. It's because of the relationship (however brief it was) that Kirk feels the way he does at the end to utter his final line.

I think you're missing my point here. Character-based writing isn't just about showing emotion. Most romance novels, for example, are full of emotion, but they're railroaded towards a predetermined plot conclusion (the happily ever after) which makes them a plot-based structure, not a character-based one. Character-based writing is when the decisions the protagonist makes are predicated on what's already been established regarding the character.

Again, would Ellison have penned a different story for an alternative TOS helped by Hunter as Pike? I don't think so. Indeed, Ellison started writing the script in March of 1966 - before a single episode with Kirk other than second pilot (The Corbomite Maneuver) was filmed. Ellison couldn't have taken Kirk's personality into account, because he didn't have one yet.

I think the argument you made for TOS S1 CotEoF applies here for anyone who had a close loving relationship with their father. You don't need to know anything from previous episodes about the relationship between Jake and his father Ben Sisko as it's all laid out in the episode.

It wouldn't have worked for Kirk or Picard because neither one of them were dads within the narrative of their shows (though we find out both were absentee fathers later, oddly).

I also disagree that most children would sacrifice their entire lives for the sake of a parent. Indeed, I think few would make the choice Ben does here.

I have never really liked TNG S5 The Inner Light because it's not really a Star Trek episode. It could easily be a Twilight Zone or Outer Limits episode and it would probably have been better served as being on either of those anthology series because at the end, the person involved would have been shown giving up his command to go and TEACH others about the history and culture of this now dead civilization that he had lived an entire full life with.

IMO - It was written by someone who didn't really want to write an actual Star Trek franchise episode because honestly it had very little to do with Star Trek, or any of the TNG characters except as a background setting and minor background characters.

Peter Allan Fields was probably one of the best writers Trek ever had. The man not only wrote The Inner Light, but did the teleplay for Duet, and the story for In The Pale Moonlight.

Pound for pound, there aren't many Trek writers who've been associated with more excellent episodes.

 

[MarcKyle1964]

Berserker would like to make some warp.

"Did he say 'making warp'?"

 

[Yistaan]

For all the non-canon but licensed takes on how Prime Kirk and Spock met written over the past 60 years (including a Shatnerverse novel where I think they meet in a strip club or something like that), I'm not sure ANY Trek fan thought the canon answer would ultimately be them meeting while a descendant of Khan was pining over one and dating the other in a messy romance triangle. (yes they officially met via Uhura but I mean the dramatic circumstances of their early partnership)

 

[Turtletrekker]

For all the non-canon but licensed takes on how Prime Kirk and Spock met written over the past 60 years (including a Shatnerverse novel where I think they meet in a strip club or something like that), I'm not sure ANY Trek fan thought the canon answer would ultimately be them meeting while a descendant of Khan was pining over one and dating the other in a messy romance triangle.

Actually, they were introduced to each other by Uhura last season.

 

[Jayson1]

"Did he say 'making warp'?"

"It's important to have a posting that makes a difference ensigns. That's why I manually masturbate Mugato's for artificial insemination."

 

[TRON JA307020]

I think the

For all the non-canon but licensed takes on how Prime Kirk and Spock met written over the past 60 years (including a Shatnerverse novel where I think they meet in a strip club or something like that), I'm not sure ANY Trek fan thought the canon answer would ultimately be them meeting while a descendant of Khan was pining over one and dating the other in a messy romance triangle. (yes they officially met via Uhura but I mean the dramatic circumstances of their early partnership)

Yeah. Kind of strange that they both know La'an and spock has been intimate with her. You would think that finding kahns ship just 5 or 6 years later they wouldn't seem so unversed on the story of Khan. Its almost like they never met La'an and really were surprised in who Khan was and what he did.

 

[Yistaan]

Yeah. Kind of strange that they both know La'an and spock has been intimate with her. You would think that finding kahns ship just 5 or 6 years later they wouldn't seem so unversed on the story of Khan. Its almost like they never met La'an and really were surprised in who Khan was and what he did.

This is pretty mild considering that Star Wars has Rex and Mon Mothma running around the Rebellion with Luke Skywalker, and who either knew Anakin Skywalker or knew of him. We also know from Andor that Bail and Mon weren't really that close so Bail likely didn't give Mon secret orders to hide Luke's heritage, meaning she should've started raising eyebrows when Luke starts waving around a lightsaber he said was his father's (when it was known that Jedi don't marry) and telling people that his father was killed by another Jedi named Darth Vader, which someone like Rex would immediately point out all the contradictions that story has with his own personal experience with Anakin and Obi-Wan (including that Darth is a title and not a name as Rex would know from the Siege of Mandalore).

 

[TRON JA307020]

This is pretty mild considering that Star Wars has Rex and Mon Mothma running around the Rebellion with Luke Skywalker, and who either knew Anakin Skywalker or knew of him. We also know from Andor that Bail and Mon weren't really that close so Bail likely didn't give Mon secret orders to hide Luke's heritage, meaning she should've started raising eyebrows when Luke starts waving around a lightsaber he said was his father's (when it was known that Jedi don't marry) and telling people that his father was killed by another Jedi named Darth Vader, which someone like Rex would immediately point out all the contradictions that story has with his own personal experience with Anakin and Obi-Wan (including that Darth is a title and not a name as Rex would know from the Siege of Mandalore).

This is pretty mild considering that Star Wars has Rex and Mon Mothma running around the Rebellion with Luke Skywalker, and who either knew Anakin Skywalker or knew of him. We also know from Andor that Bail and Mon weren't really that close so Bail likely didn't give Mon secret orders to hide Luke's heritage, meaning she should've started raising eyebrows when Luke starts waving around a lightsaber he said was his father's (when it was known that Jedi don't marry) and telling people that his father was killed by another Jedi named Darth Vader, which someone like Rex would immediately point out all the contradictions that story has with his own personal experience with Anakin and Obi-Wan (including that Darth is a title and not a name as Rex would know from the Siege of Mandalore).

They might have told Luke stories of Anakins adventures.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Again, would Ellison have penned a different story for an alternative TOS helped by Hunter as Pike? I don't think so. Indeed, Ellison started writing the script in March of 1966 - before a single episode with Kirk other than second pilot (The Corbomite Maneuver) was filmed. Ellison couldn't have taken Kirk's personality into account, because he didn't have one yet.

You have to remember that folks like Roddenberry, Coon and Fontana were reshaping and rewriting the scripts submitted. (Much to Ellison's dismay). They made the stories fit Star Trek and it's characters. COTEOF took about a year to get into filming shape. Going through rewrites by Ellison, Carabatsos, Fontana, Coon and Rodenberry. The final version was by Coon and Roddenberry. More than enough time for Kirk to become Kirk.

 

[DaveyNY]

I think the


Yeah. Kind of strange that they both know La'an and spock has been intimate with her. You would think that finding kahns ship just 5 or 6 years later they wouldn't seem so unversed on the story of Khan. Its almost like they never met La'an and really were surprised in who Khan was and what he did.

What was in the dialogue of Space Seed that leads you to believe that Kirk & Spock were "unversed" in the history of Khan?

From my many viewings of that episode, it was quite apparent that they were well aware of his history and nothing they knew about his 200+ year descendant, would change or add to that.
(remember too that La'an didn't tell anybody the exact details of her time travel experience)

Hell, even Scotty made a comment about Khan's history.

Perhaps you should rewatch it to update your memory.

They basically just didn't realize that it was him right away.

 

[Nerys Myk]

What was in the dialogue of Space Seed that leads you to believe that Kirk & Spock were "unversed" in the history of Khan?

From my many viewings of that episode, it was quite apparent that they were well aware of his history and nothing they knew about his 200+ year descendant would change or add to that.
(La'an didn't tell anybody the exact details of her time travel)

Hell, even Scotty made a comment about Khan's history.

Perhaps you should rewatch it to update your memory.

They basically just didn't realize that it was him right away.

Indeed
KIRK: Name, Khan, as we know him today. (Spock changes the picture) Name, Khan Noonien Singh.
SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East.
MCCOY: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.
SCOTT: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one.
KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is
KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule.
SPOCK: And as little freedom.
MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked.
SPOCK: Gentlemen.
KIRK: Mister Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.
SPOCK: Illogical.
KIRK: Totally. This is the Captain. Put a twenty four hour security on Mister Khan's quarters, effective immediately

They clearly know something of Khan and his history.

 

[UssGlenn]

They basically just didn't realize that it was him right away.

yep, they didn't know his face on sight. Other than that they were reasonably well versed on his history. Would you recognize George Washington even if he Introduced himself as George?

 

[DaveyNY]

yep, they didn't know his face on sight. Other than that they were reasonably well versed on his history. Would you recognize George Washington even if he Introduced himself as George?

Welllll .... If he was wearing one of those stupid white wigs and his wooden dentures were showing, I might have a slight clue right off the bat.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Welllll .... If he was wearing one of those stupid white wigs and his wooden dentures were showing, I might have a slight clue.

It's the guy from the money!!!

 

[DaveyNY]

It's the guy from the money!!!

Heh ... You mean that Benjamin guy?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Heh ... You mean that Benjamin guy?

He is what it's all about!

 

[Jayson1]

yep, they didn't know his face on sight. Other than that they were reasonably well versed on his history. Would you recognize George Washington even if he Introduced himself as George?

History books showed Khan to look like Benedict Cumberbatch. Easy mistake to make.

 

[DaveyNY]

History books showed Khan to look like Benedict Cumberbatch. Easy mistake to make.

Ummm .. not my history books.
Mine indicate that he is the spitting image of Ricardo Montalban.

You must be channeling an alternate universe.

 

[cooleddie74]

History books showed Khan to look like Benedict Cumberbatch. Easy mistake to make.

I will walk over your wet, hose-sprayed corpse.