Spoilers Star Trek: Lower Decks 3x06 - "Hear All, Trust Nothing"

[Dukhat]

Just finished watching the episode. I liked it; it was OK. I didn't feel like it was the 'valentine' to DS9 fans like some people are making it out to be. And I'll echo the sentiment that Visitor and Shimerman sounded like they've aged 23 years rather than only the 5 they were meant to have aged since the end of DS9. But it was nice that they brought them back. And Mariner made a joke that wasn't a Star Trek joke! (the 'Hemingway' joke.) And it was actually funny! Or at least I thought so.

I realize that they wanted to keep things relatively the same on DS9 for nostalgia purposes, but the logician in me felt that most of it didn't make much sense. Five years have passed since WYLB, and everything and everyone looks pretty much the same. The station looks the same, there are no ships docked or in orbit other than the Cerritos and the Karemma ship (when it should be a hub of activity), Kira looks the same, Quark looks the same (and now that he has franchises all over the place, why is he still on DS9? It's not like Quark's was all that hopping.) The Bajorans still haven't joined the Federation for some unknown reason. The Defiant is gone. Where is Starfleet's presence here, other than officers on the station? The assumption is that the Dominion have kept on their side of the wormhole for the last five years since no real negotiations or communication has happened. Kira doesn't even mention Odo, Sisko, or anyone else she formerly worked with. I realize this is just a 30-minute-per-episode animated comedy show, so my expectations aren't that high, but it still would have been nice to have some advancement and/or closure to things other than just surface dressing.

 

[Crewman6]

Just finished watching the episode. I liked it; it was OK. I didn't feel like it was the 'valentine' to DS9 fans like some people are making it out to be. And I'll echo the sentiment that Visitor and Shimerman sounded like they've aged 23 years rather than only the 5 they were meant to have aged since the end of DS9. But it was nice that they brought them back. And Mariner made a joke that wasn't a Star Trek joke! (the 'Hemingway' joke.) And it was actually funny! Or at least I thought so.

I realize that they wanted to keep things relatively the same on DS9 for nostalgia purposes, but the logician in me felt that most of it didn't make much sense. Five years have passed since WYLB, and everything and everyone looks pretty much the same. The station looks the same, there are no ships docked or in orbit other than the Cerritos and the Karemma ship (when it should be a hub of activity), Kira looks the same, Quark looks the same (and now that he has franchises all over the place, why is he still on DS9? It's not like Quark's was all that hopping.) The Bajorans still haven't joined the Federation for some unknown reason. The Defiant is gone. Where is Starfleet's presence here, other than officers on the station? The assumption is that the Dominion have kept on their side of the wormhole for the last five years since no real negotiations or communication has happened. Kira doesn't even mention Odo, Sisko, or anyone else she formerly worked with. I realize this is just a 30-minute-per-episode animated comedy show, so my expectations aren't that high, but it still would have been nice to have some advancement and/or closure to things other than just surface dressing.

Agree with your points! Kira should have been made a general and they should have modified her uniform at least somewhat.

Despite the (dumbass) inclusion of franchised Quark's on Picard, that series is canonically years away, it seems too much of a stretch that Quark already has twenty(!) franchises a mere 2-3 years after DS9 Season 7.

The absence of references or appearances by other characters - even in non-speaking background roles - was disappointing. Where are Ezri and Bashir? Or any of the other familiar faces?

LD could have also take the bold step of actually giving Morn a line for the first time, which could have been hilarious and great.


Couldn't Ds9 have changed in interesting/surprising ways? No, of course not, that would have required some effort on the part of the writers.

As usual, the imagination of the writing staff continues to be extremely limited.

 

[fireproof78]

As usual, the imagination of the writing staff continues to be extremely limited.

Because it's designed to appeal to the familiar, not going outside the lines too much, save in the name of comedy.

 

[Crewman6]

Because it's designed to appeal to the familiar, not going outside the lines too much, save in the name of comedy.

If the show was actually funny, this approach might work.

 

[fireproof78]

If the show was actually funny, this approach might work.

It is one of the aspects of doing a comedy that is difficult. Humor is subjective is a cliche but very true saying, as well as the fact that nostalgia selling is all the rage, both within Trek and in larger popular culture. It might not be funny to some, but it is definitely what is selling and what is considered closer to "Star Trek" in the minds of enough people to keep selling.

 

[Dukhat]

Showing the station and its personnel as stagnant for the last five years really has nothing to do with the comedic aspects of the show.

 

[fireproof78]

Showing the station and its personnel as stagnant for the last five years really has nothing to do with the comedic aspects of the show.

No. That's the nostalgia stylings and trends of Trek of late aspect of the show.

 

[Dukhat]

I suppose I prefer realism and logical change to stagnant nostalgia.

 

[fireproof78]

I suppose I prefer realism and logical change to stagnant nostalgia.

Understandable.

I am simply noting what sells. To my mind, Trek has moved away from realism and logical change in favor of a feeling of familiarity and touchstone moments. I think this trend started a while back, more out of practical necessity than any real creative choice, and the result is a desire for safe, familiar, and unchanging. How successful that is will depend greatly on one's point of view.

 

[Enterprise is Great]

9. I would’ve given it a 10 if the Mariner story has engaged me more. It was fun but not as fun as the Tendi Orion stuff. So nice to see DS9 in all its animated glory.

 

[Tuskin38]

If the show was actually funny, this approach might work.

Funny is subjective, tons of people find it funny, you do not.

As usual, the imagination of the writing staff continues to be extremely limited.

That's not true at all.

 

[Crewman6]

That's not true at all.

The storytelling is extremely simplistic, the characterizations are one-note (and, in the case of Tendi and Rutherford, we have two characters sharing the same single character trait), the world-building is boring and most of the "humor" consists merely of name-checking uninspired easter eggs and references.

But, other than that, it's a good show!

 

[Ghel]

Couldn't Ds9 have changed in interesting/surprising ways? No, of course not, that would have required some effort on the part of the writers.

While in reality there would be changes, when it comes to fiction most people enjoy familiarity. Going back to DS9 in LD and not only wanting it to be substantially different but also implying that the familiarity = writer laziness is like picking up a Lee Child novel and being surprised that Jack Reacher is still the toughest guy in the room after 20+ years of novels or purchasing a Michael Connelly novel and being shocked that the Lincoln Lawyer still doesn't have a regular office. If DS9 were dramatically different, the writers would be taking heat for not caring about/honoring the original show.

Especially in a 20ish minute episode, there was plenty of familiarity and differences IMHO. As others have pointed out, who knows who the crew of the Defiant might be or where they are. It could be interesting to explore, but for the sake of the episode, it doesn't really matter.

 

[The Wormhole]

The Defiant is gone.

The Defiant was probably out on a mission. The station is allowed to have things happening whilst the Defiant is away.

 

[fireproof78]

If DS9 were dramatically different, the writers would be taking heat for not caring about/honoring the original show.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[Dukhat]

While in reality there would be changes, when it comes to fiction most people enjoy familiarity. Going back to DS9 in LD and not only wanting it to be substantially different but also implying that the familiarity = writer laziness is like picking up a Lee Child novel and being surprised that Jack Reacher is still the toughest guy in the room after 20+ years of novels or purchasing a Michael Connelly novel and being shocked that the Lincoln Lawyer still doesn't have a regular office. If DS9 were dramatically different, the writers would be taking heat for not caring about/honoring the original show.

Especially in a 20ish minute episode, there was plenty of familiarity and differences IMHO. As others have pointed out, who knows who the crew of the Defiant might be or where they are. It could be interesting to explore, but for the sake of the episode, it doesn't really matter.

You attributed a quote to me that I didn’t say. That was Crewman6, not me.

The Defiant was probably out on a mission. The station is allowed to have things happening whilst the Defiant is away.

And again I will ask: Where is Starfleet's presence on DS9, other than the few officers we saw on the station? If the Defiant was on a mission, why aren't there any backup ships? What happens if the Dominion suddenly decided they were going to send an attack fleet through the wormhole?

(Full disclosure: I fully realize that I am taking this way too seriously. This is an animated comedy show that doesn't take things seriously, so why should I? Well...because I'm a realist, and this show isn't really all that realistic.)

 

[Sci]

And I'll echo the sentiment that Visitor and Shimerman sounded like they've aged 23 years rather than only the 5 they were meant to have aged since the end of DS9.

... so what? Do you want them to hire someone to do impressions of them instead of the actual actors? Sometimes you gotta suspend disbelief.

I realize that they wanted to keep things relatively the same on DS9 for nostalgia purposes, but the logician in me felt that most of it didn't make much sense. Five years have passed since WYLB, and everything and everyone looks pretty much the same.

"Everyone and everything?" We saw Kira, Quark, and Morn. That's not a lot of "everyone."

The station looks the same, there are no ships docked or in orbit other than the Cerritos and the Karemma ship (when it should be a hub of activity),

Is this really an important point?

Kira looks the same, Quark looks the same

It's been like six years. They wouldn't look that different.

(and now that he has franchises all over the place, why is he still on DS9? It's not like Quark's was all that hopping.)

I think you're overlooking that, no matter how much Quark might have complained, he really was attached to DS9 and its community.

The Bajorans still haven't joined the Federation for some unknown reason.

Quite possibly, but we don't know that for certain. But "for some unknown reason?" I think the experience of knowing they would have been targeted by the Dominion if they had been unable to maintain control of their own foreign policy and sign a nonaggression pact is probably the kind of experience that would energize the Bajoran nationalist movement. I mean, hell, Bajoran nationalists had almost managed to kick the Federation out just a few years earlier!

The Defiant is gone.

We don't know that it's gone. We just didn't see it in this episode.

Where is Starfleet's presence here, other than officers on the station?

Interesting question! But if Starfleet's presence has decreased, then that contradicts your complaint that everything's the same, doesn't it?

The assumption is that the Dominion have kept on their side of the wormhole for the last five years since no real negotiations or communication has happened.

There's nothing in the episode to suggest or establish that no real negotiations or communication has happened with the Dominion. All we know is that this is the first time the UFP and the Karemma have entered trade negotiations.

Kira doesn't even mention Odo, Sisko, or anyone else she formerly worked with.

Because the LD writers wanted to keep other shows' writers' options open if they ever decided to bring back major DS9 characters.

I realize this is just a 30-minute-per-episode animated comedy show, so my expectations aren't that high, but it still would have been nice to have some advancement and/or closure to things other than just surface dressing.

The closure was supposed to come from "What You Leave Behind" 23 years ago. "Here All, Trust Nothing" is a quick visit to old friends, not a full DS9 revival that's supposed to give closure to anything other than its own story.

Kira should have been made a general and they should have modified her uniform at least somewhat.

Why?

Despite the (dumbass) inclusion of franchised Quark's on Picard, that series is canonically years away, it seems too much of a stretch that Quark already has twenty(!) franchises a mere 2-3 years after DS9 Season 7.

It's been about six years. And it's not that much of a stretch if he's been selling the license to use stolen Karemma replicator recipies that are popular. You know, like the episode explicitly establishes.

The absence of references or appearances by other characters - even in non-speaking background roles - was disappointing. Where are Ezri and Bashir? Or any of the other familiar faces?

Disappointing but understandable. Lower Decks is produced at a very different pace than the live-action shows, and the LD writers probably didn't want to tie the live-action shows' hands if they should want to bring back DS9 characters.

LD could have also take the bold step of actually giving Morn a line for the first time, which could have been hilarious and great.

Absolutely not! That ruins the entire gag.

Couldn't Ds9 have changed in interesting/surprising ways? No, of course not, that would have required some effort on the part of the writers.

That's uncalled for. It's not appropriate for an animated sitcom to make major changes to the DS9 situation. Its job in this instance is to present a typical DS9-type story and then give it a humorous spin.

As usual, the imagination of the writing staff continues to be extremely limited.

Again, uncalled for. It's not a matter of lacking imagination, it's a matter of what's appropriate for an animated sitcom to establish in a tip-of-the-hat episode.

 

[Photoman15]

I suppose I prefer realism and logical change to stagnant nostalgia.

Realism? From a sci-fi show about a wormhole where a human-prophet came from? In an episode drawn by computers and some humans?

 

[Dukhat]

... so what? Do you want them to hire someone to do impressions of them instead of the actual actors? Sometimes you gotta suspend disbelief.



"Everyone and everything?" We saw Kira, Quark, and Morn. That's not a lot of "everyone."



Is this really an important point?



It's been like six years. They wouldn't look that different.



I think you're overlooking that, no matter how much Quark might have complained, he really was attached to DS9 and its community.



Quite possibly, but we don't know that for certain. But "for some unknown reason?" I think the experience of knowing they would have been targeted by the Dominion if they had been unable to maintain control of their own foreign policy and sign a nonaggression pact is probably the kind of experience that would energize the Bajoran nationalist movement. I mean, hell, Bajoran nationalists had almost managed to kick the Federation out just a few years earlier!



We don't know that it's gone. We just didn't see it in this episode.



Interesting question! But if Starfleet's presence has decreased, then that contradicts your complaint that everything's the same, doesn't it?



There's nothing in the episode to suggest or establish that no real negotiations or communication has happened with the Dominion. All we know is that this is the first time the UFP and the Karemma have entered trade negotiations.



Because the LD writers wanted to keep other shows' writers' options open if they ever decided to bring back major DS9 characters.



The closure was supposed to come from "What You Leave Behind" 23 years ago. "Here All, Trust Nothing" is a quick visit to old friends, not a full DS9 revival that's supposed to give closure to anything other than its own story.



Why?



It's been about six years. And it's not that much of a stretch if he's been selling the license to use stolen Karemma replicator recipies that are popular. You know, like the episode explicitly establishes.



Disappointing but understandable. Lower Decks is produced at a very different pace than the live-action shows, and the LD writers probably didn't want to tie the live-action shows' hands if they should want to bring back DS9 characters.



Absolutely not! That ruins the entire gag.



That's uncalled for. It's not appropriate for an animated sitcom to make major changes to the DS9 situation. Its job in this instance is to present a typical DS9-type story and then give it a humorous spin.



Again, uncalled for. It's not a matter of lacking imagination, it's a matter of what's appropriate for an animated sitcom to establish in a tip-of-the-hat episode.

Since you seem dead-set on negating every single sentence of my posts for some odd (and possibly personal) reason, I’m not sure why I should bother responding to you. Let me give you a word of advice: I mentioned that I realize that I’m taking all this way too seriously (which was the one thing you didn’t quote, probably because there was nothing about it that you could negate.) Perhaps you should do the same.

 

[Tuskin38]

The storytelling is extremely simplistic, the characterizations are one-note (and, in the case of Tendi and Rutherford, we have two characters sharing the same single character trait)

I think we're watching two different shows.