Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x12 - "There Is A Tide…"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Commander Richard, Dec 30, 2020.

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Rate the episode...

  1. 10 - Excellent!

    19.1%
  2. 9

    21.4%
  3. 8

    30.1%
  4. 7

    16.8%
  5. 6

    2.3%
  6. 5

    4.0%
  7. 4

    1.7%
  8. 3

    0.6%
  9. 2

    0.6%
  10. 1 - Terrible!

    3.5%
  1. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Furthermore, on the subject of Emerald Chain economic prowess... well, I didn't get the impression it had a real upper hand compared to the Federation.
    If anything, they may have achieved some level of parity in that regard mainly due to the Burn and the Federation being drastically reduced in size, dilithium shortage, not knowing if the Burn would happen again, and of course Warp capability (though you can't really beat 'no money'/Resource based economy approach to be fair).
    Osyraa simply wanted the Federation 'acknowledging' that C{r}apitalism was already occurring in Emerald Chain space and that previous Federation starbases participated in 'trade'.

    I suspect the arrangement would have necessitated a quazi-merger of RBE the Federation probably employs and Capitalism ... or at least to retain existing economic measures as the Chain implements them in some parts of space while leaving RBE type practices (aka, no money) in others.

    It would also give Osyraa a great deal of power (or at least the ability to retain what power she has) and eventual possibility of extending her reach once she's nested/merged into the Federation.

    Obviously, Vance wanted peace and was willing to do so since Osyraa did manage to pass the abolition of slavery and retrieval from 50 pre-warp planets - I do have to say that Osyraa did think things through.

    However, Vance obviously didn't want Osyraa to not answer for her crimes (which were numerous).

    Also, Osyraa needed the Federation to cooperate, because she knew that the Chain could probably lose (or withstand massive losses) if she engaged in a full on conflict with what's left of the Federation.
    Could the Federation lose in an all out conflict?
    Possibly, but one shouldn't underestimate the technological and resource capacity of even 38 member species (all of which would share same technological base most likely, construction facilities and resources... not to mention massive technical efficiency).
    So, the Chain did grab hold of about 50 pre-warp civilizations and their resources. That gives them an edge of about 12 more planets... but if they're pre-warp and without needed infrastructure, they'd be useless - unless of course the Chain set up numerous construction facilities in those star systems.

    Asteroids alone contain massive amounts of resources, so its not the pre-warp planets that are of particular interests, but the resources their star systems contain/provide.

    Regardless, the Chain had to build that up over time... and the Federation simply had to maintain what it had left... so, they'd probably be roughly equal to each other and why the Chain/Osyraa might not want to risk an all out war with the Federation if she can avoid it.

    Problem is, if I was in Vance's shoes... I don't think I would agree to Osyraa's terms. The economic aspects I could probably live with for peace yes... but to not have her accept responsibility for her actions... eh... that probably wouldn't sit well with the remainder of the Federation especially not after centuries of upholding the ideals and principles it set out.
     
  2. Hawku

    Hawku Commander Red Shirt

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    Let's get that President over there.
     
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  3. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    I don't remember them saying anything about immunity so I take it this is pure speculation.
     
  4. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    yet, for many those moral reference points weren’t and aren’t so shared.

    I never wrote it’s “all”, but are you saying that those comments don’t exist? It would be *extremely* simple to find them, honestly.


    Yet that is exactly what happens with Georgiu in the last double episode featuring her, even if Vance doesn’t know it: she’s changed and has accepted that Kelpian-eating is wrong, among other things.

    I think that the latter was the intention: Vance referred to it as “a new federation”, but what I got was more like a strict alliance, with the two government reaching some form of integration but maintaining separate political bodies and economical systems. This is why Osyraa asks for recognition that capitalism is happening in certain areas of the federation but doesn’t necessarily ask to extend it everywhere. This is also why the future face of the Chain, *not* of the new alliance, is discussed.
     
  5. AntonyF

    AntonyF Official Tahmoh Taster Rear Admiral

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    I should stop watching this show, but a bit like like not being able to look away from a car wreck...

    Oded Fehr - a brilliant actor - having to explain that they're eating shit. That's what we've come to. That's a joke from the Orville really.

    Super Burnham being supery super and cauterising her own wounds as there's nothing she can't do. A Starfleet ship that if you break a censor will throw crew out into space without any thought. B-rated ex Stargate characters (and I say that as someone who enjoyed SG). If anything it feels like a show like Dark Matter. Cute droids coming to the rescue of Ensign Crusher/Adele. Geeze.

    It's high on pew pew pew and absurd character who aren't even part of the crew because writing GOOD, COMPELLING HUMANS is hard. It's always been hard in Star trek. Discovery just gave up. or it never tried.

    These are mostly just random thoughts as I can't even hold enough interest to actually review this crap.

    This was the franchise that gave us City on the Edge of Forever, The Drumhead, Duet and more.

    Not only is it sad for Star Trek... but it's sad for humanity. That this mental gruel is being fed to people as a society.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2021
  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    But they can be referenced at least and Osyraa can be held to account by her peers. Not so with Georgiou.
    That wasn't what I said at all. If I misread the implication of right wing be de facto racist I apologize.
    But, she had to learn that herself. There were no peers of her's in the Prime Universe to hold her to account. She had to discover that there is a better way.

    Even if the moral lines of different powers are not identical it's not like Osyraa would be ignorant of such standards or even possible other moral points of view. Otherwise, why would she concede on slavery to Vance? Because Vance said so?

    Came from Enterprise originally.
    How so? What does this show say about us as a species? Never mind the multiple episodes that are ridiculous on their face, or racist or just plain stupid. No, this is the line where our species is somehow deficient for daring to produce? :vulcan:

    I hope you find something more of your palate then.:beer:
     
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  7. Deks

    Deks Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You are correct that there was no mention of an 'immunity' per say, but from the ENT episode with Orion females, we saw that Human females (and also T'Pol and Tucker because of their shared telepathic link) were not affected.
    That's why I said that if the writers wanted to create a situation with a gay male being unaffected by Orion female pheromones, they could have used brain chemistry explanation as to why gay men are unaffected (much like heterosexual females).

    At any rate, since it was never mentioned and we subsequently saw Orion females serving in Starfleet, we can only speculate a reason that Stafleet Medical developed a serum which is given to all Federation citizens and SF personnel as part of their vaccine immunizations at birth from 23rd century onward which protects against Orion female pheromones.
     
  8. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    I wouldn't use Enterprise as a reference. What are the chances that a crew of eighty people, in majority male, wouldn't include a single gay male? I'd say astronomically close to zero. Apparently, the only male that wasn't seduced by the Orion was trip!!! Plus same thing about the females, they don't mention a single case of a female being attracted to the Orion!!! Phlox makes a sweeping remark that doesn't mention either. I think the whole episode is just idiotic. Probably the worst of the fourth season, but that's just me.
     
  9. Kevman7987

    Kevman7987 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Turning the Orions into the Falleen from the Star Wars EU was a waste of an ENT episode.
     
  10. AntonyF

    AntonyF Official Tahmoh Taster Rear Admiral

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    Just in general, not this episode, it says we are without aspiration. Our two modes are crying and warring (which is I guess quite fitting for as US-originated programme right now).

    Even against a backdrop of really shit times, Star Trek was about being BETTER.

    Aspiration.

    Science. Ex astra scienta. From the stars knowledge.

    We seem to have lost the ability to star gaze and aspire to be just be better. And Star Trek is not an appointed moral guardian to this point, but it did it well. Star Trek of old amongst all the drudgery and sillyness held that at its core.

    The writers are kind of selfish now. They don't write to aspire. They don't write for a wide audience. They don't have the ability to even write for human characters in a normal way. Just being boring. Just trying to be better. That's too dull. It's far easier to write aliens and pew pew. And even that they don't do well.
     
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  11. BillJ

    BillJ Canon Warrior Premium Member

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    It is something that defined Star Trek and has definitely been lost in the current era.
     
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  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I disagree. Georgiou's whole arc was about being better. But, that's me. I view crying as a strength not a weakness.

    But, I think that letting Trek stop being our measure of humanity's worth and ambition would be wise.
     
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  13. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Admiral Premium Member

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    The message of aspiration is still there - the desire to rebuild the Federation and preserve its core principles by rejecting Ossyra and the Chain, despite the opportunity it may present to join with them.

    I think it’s more a problem of the way the message is being presented.
     
  14. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I guess so. The message has been clear to me from the word go.

    I don't see Trek's current approach as less aspirational than before. It's just more willing to acknowledge how deep dark times can go.

    Or, maybe I'm the weird one who doesn't need TV show to aspire to be better or think better of humanity.
     
  15. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I can’t agree with most of your post, but you are spot on here: that was very Orville (and felt a bit out of place to me).

    Because you decided so.

    Very well. The only implications I made is that 1) values of right and wrong are not as shared as one might want to believe even in our limited, human societies; 2) racism is still alive and well, as is the will of “killing the different” and clear traces of those mentalities can easily be found in right wing discussion groups, which is a different thing than saying that all right-wingers are racists or all racists right-wingers.

    One can study other cultures without necessarily sharing their values. Osyraa’s people obviously studied the history of the Federation to draft that treaty and predicted that maintaining slavery would have been impossible if they wanted the treaty to succeeded. This doesn’t mean that Osyraa and her peers believe slavery to be immoral, just politically inconvenient at the moment.

    Speaking of the morality of slavery, we, as self-appointed citizens of “civilized” countries may believe it to be immoral, yet turn a blind eye to the many places where it’s still practiced more or less in the open for our own direct gain and try to forget that not long ago its presence was considered the natural order of things in the same places we live.
     
  16. BillJ

    BillJ Canon Warrior Premium Member

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    It isn't about "needing it", but it was something that made Trek stick out amongst a lot of other shows. Now? I have trouble telling Discovery and Picard apart from something like The Expanse.

    For whatever flaws TNG had (and there were many), that these were people who by-and-large wanted to do the right thing and didn't have poisonous baggage between them was unique. It may not be coincidence that the more that Trek moved away from that vision of the future the more the viewership declined.

    But that's just my view from the cheap seats.
     
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  17. BillJ

    BillJ Canon Warrior Premium Member

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    Unless Georgiou goes back to the Mirror Universe to stand trial for her crimes, she can never be held accountable by her peers in that universe. You know? Where she committed her crimes...
     
  18. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Fair. How would you judge Georgiou?
    I wouldn't argue that.
    I am aware and advocate against it.
     
  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I still see it. It just requires more work.
     
  20. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Cartoon Premium Member

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    It's just a TV show, so was TOS. Those "benchmarks" aren't really that high in the greater scheme of things
     
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