Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x12 - "There Is A Tide…"

[Timo]

…just like Osyraa didn't, having grown up in a society where murder and slavery are perfectly normal.

Georgiou is like a domesticated Project Paperclip Nazi, lacking a Nazi Germany and thus with zero potential to be a threat again. Osyraa is the very embodiment of the Nazi Germany of her day. Prosecuting the former would serve no symbolical or practical purpose. Prosecuting the latter would serve both.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Yistaan]

Prosecuting the former would serve no symbolical or practical purpose. Prosecuting the latter would serve both.

Osyraa isn't going to let that stop her from throwing that at Vance as an example of what she'll claim is his hypocrisy. If anything, it would bolster her claim that Vance doesn't really care about justice, but only about what serves a practical or symbolic purpose for the Federation.

 

[fireproof78]

…just like Osyraa didn't, having grown up in a society where murder and slavery are perfectly normal.

I guess for me Osyraa had the opportunity to learn a different way. Georgiou didn't in the MU.

Osyraa isn't going to let that stop her from throwing that at Vance as an example of what she'll claim is his hypocrisy. If anything, it would bolster her claim that Vance doesn't really care about justice, but only about what serves a practical or symbolic purpose for the Federation.

Well, given Osyraa's supposed pragmatic stance she should appreciate the Vance being practical.

 

[Discofan]

Slavery is just the visible part of the iceberg. Osyraa is a sadistic bitch that doesn't care about people's lives or anything else for that matter, only her self-interest. Besides, I think she's gonna die next episode.

 

[Lord Garth]

It's funny. For 23 of my 25 years online, we had Godwin's Law. That appears to be a thing of the past. At least here. I don't see the Emerald Chain as Nazi Germany. More like The Mafia meets Stalin-Russia. They mixed and matched different things. I don't think the Emerald Chain is a clear-cut analogue for any one thing. Even the Terran Empire was a mix of different things.

The closest we got to a pure example of an analogue for Nazi Germany in Star Trek was the Cardassian Union. "Duet" was pretty naked about it.

 

[Discofan]

It's funny. For 23 of my 25 years online, we had Godwin's Law. That appears to be a thing of the past. At least here. I don't see the Emerald Chain as Nazi Germany. More like The Mafia meets Stalin-Russia.

Slavery, racket, executing people for minor offenses... What does it take for you to be "Nazi Germany"?

 

[Lord Garth]

Slavery, racket, executing people for minor offenses... What does it take for you to be "Nazi Germany"?

And that wasn't the Soviets or the Mafia?

 

[Lord Garth]

Slavery, racket, executing people for minor offenses... What does it take for you to be "Nazi Germany"?

Exterminating an entire race just for being that race. Which the Emerald Chain hasn't done.

"They're Nazis!" is the lazy way of going about things. It sounds good and spares people from taking the time to think about anything, so they go with it. It's easy.

 

[Discofan]

And that wasn't the Soviets or the Mafia?

...and Nazi Germany.

 

[Discofan]

Exterminating an entire race just for being that race. Which the Emerald Chain hasn't done.
...

We don't know that. I am sure they wouldn't mind killing an entire planet just for the example.

 

[Lord Garth]

We don't know that. I am sure they wouldn't mind killing an entire planet just for the example.

We don't know either way.

But if the Emerald Chain were really as bad as you insist, Vance would've said something about it by now.

 

[NCC-73515]

Slavery, racket, executing people for minor offenses... What does it take for you to be "Nazi Germany"?

Genocide, extermination camps, cruel medical experiments, blitzkrieg expansion, persecution and murder of minorities.
Which of those has the EC done?

 

[eschaton]

Genocide, extermination camps, cruel medical experiments, blitzkrieg expansion, persecution and murder of minorities.
Which of those has the EC done?

Not to mention the Emerald Chain seems to be decidedly not a "master race" kinda organization. Orions may be at the top, but it seems like a multiracial consortium.

 

[DEWLine]

Orions, Andorians, what looks like several human factions, and who else?

 

[fireproof78]

Orions, Andorians, what looks like several human factions, and who else?

Grudge...

Yeah, I'm watching you kitty.

 

[DEWLine]

All that "SpaceCatte" talk on Twitter...

 

[fireproof78]

It isn't about "needing it", but it was something that made Trek stick out amongst a lot of other shows. Now? I have trouble telling Discovery and Picard apart from something like The Expanse.

For whatever flaws TNG had (and there were many), that these were people who by-and-large wanted to do the right thing and didn't have poisonous baggage between them was unique. It may not be coincidence that the more that Trek moved away from that vision of the future the more the viewership declined.

But that's just my view from the cheap seats.

So I know this is an old post and largely won't change your view but I found this quote rather apt:

Maybe I'm blind or biased or reading in to discovery too much. But Discovery is one of those things that tells me that humanity can do better despite the challenges, and not just speechify them away. I am slowly warming up to TNG but it didn't always feel like there was room for growth. It felt like problems were solved in a very sitcom style way. Same with TOS even now, aside from a couple of different episodes.

I don't know. I guess I want to see challenges and struggles.

 

[jackoverfull]

Georgiou is like a domesticated Project Paperclip Nazi, lacking a Nazi Germany and thus with zero potential to be a threat again.

That walked freely on the ship and routinely got hand weapons.

Osyraa is the very embodiment of the Nazi Germany of her day. Prosecuting the former would serve no symbolical or practical purpose. Prosecuting the latter would serve both.

So much for "principles", now we're talking "practical purposes"!

The closest we got to a pure example of an analogue for Nazi Germany in Star Trek was the Cardassian Union. "

Not so sure about that.

We don't know either way.

But if the Emerald Chain were really as bad as you insist, Vance would've said something about it by now.

Precisely. Maybe the Chain's bad reputation in the Federation isn't that deserved.

Not to mention the Emerald Chain seems to be decidedly not a "master race" kinda organization. Orions may be at the top, but it seems like a multiracial consortium.

In fact it's Osyraa to emphasize how the truth-checking hologram is *human* (emphasis hers). A common point of grievance in these forums is how starfleet is often presented as a mainly human organization, where the other races are an exception.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

The Emerald Chain is more akin to the trading conglomerates of colonial britain like the east india company than it is the nazis.

 

[fireproof78]

Not so sure about that.

And complimented:
GILL: Planet fragmented. Divided. Took lesson from Earth history.
KIRK: But why Nazi Germany? You studied history. You knew what the Nazis were.
GILL: Most efficient state Earth ever knew.
SPOCK: Quite true, Captain. That tiny country, beaten, bankrupt, defeated, rose in a few years to stand only one step away from global domination.
KIRK: But it was brutal, perverted, had to be destroyed at a terrible cost. Why that example?

The Emerald Chain is more akin to the trading conglomerates of colonial britain like the east india company than it is the nazis.

Aren't we supposed to hate them? That's what Pirates of the Caribbean movies taught me.