Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x12 - "There Is A Tide…"

[Hawku]

Let's get that President over there.

 

[Discofan]

Well, I'm gay and I don't find that subject controversial.
Peer-review studies were released a while ago positing the possibility of male homosexuality being linked to brain chemistry and it being similar to the brain chemistry of heterosexual females.

If anything, there is no 'gay gene', so brain chemistry (or how its structured due to various environmental factors in gestation and post birth) is a factor which shapes human sexual orientation (among other things).

Besides, it was stated on-screen that Orion females produce pheromones which affect male physiology... but it had no effect on females... so it wouldn't be a stretch to apply the premise that similar brain chemistry in male homosexuals and heterosexual females would give gay men same 'immunity' to Orion female pheromones like it does in heterosexual females (except lesbians of course) - it actually makes more real life science sense than a lot of 'science' that's been proposed in Trek.

But as I said, its highly unlikely that Starfleet would rely on those factors, so they would probably just include an immunity in whatever immunizations SF officers and Federation citizens at large get at birth in the 23rd century and onward.

I don't remember them saying anything about immunity so I take it this is pure speculation.

 

[jackoverfull]

I didn't say it wasn't shocking. No where is shocking the term I was looking for Simply the ability to recognize that it is wrong, morally so. Having the same moral reference points

yet, for many those moral reference points weren’t and aren’t so shared.

And, with due respect, I lean more right wing and participate in different discussions here and there. I see nothing about "inferior races" in those discussions. So, respectfully, while I am sure it exists it is not all right wing people or discussions.

I never wrote it’s “all”, but are you saying that those comments don’t exist? It would be *extremely* simple to find them, honestly.

Because Osyraa had the opportunity to learn, she had the capability of learning what was right and wrong from the Federation, or the Andorians, or others. They had a common reference point of morality. Vance could point to specific people that the Chain had wronged or Osyraa had wronged. In short, she had a standard that she could reference and Vance could hold her to account to. Vance has no such thing with Georgiou.

Yet that is exactly what happens with Georgiu in the last double episode featuring her, even if Vance doesn’t know it: she’s changed and has accepted that Kelpian-eating is wrong, among other things.

I suspect the arrangement would have necessitated a quazi-merger of RBE the Federation probably employs and Capitalism ... or at least to retain existing economic measures as the Chain implements them in some parts of space while leaving RBE type practices (aka, no money) in others

I think that the latter was the intention: Vance referred to it as “a new federation”, but what I got was more like a strict alliance, with the two government reaching some form of integration but maintaining separate political bodies and economical systems. This is why Osyraa asks for recognition that capitalism is happening in certain areas of the federation but doesn’t necessarily ask to extend it everywhere. This is also why the future face of the Chain, *not* of the new alliance, is discussed.

 

[AntonyF]

I should stop watching this show, but a bit like like not being able to look away from a car wreck...

Oded Fehr - a brilliant actor - having to explain that they're eating shit. That's what we've come to. That's a joke from the Orville really.

Super Burnham being supery super and cauterising her own wounds as there's nothing she can't do. A Starfleet ship that if you break a censor will throw crew out into space without any thought. B-rated ex Stargate characters (and I say that as someone who enjoyed SG). If anything it feels like a show like Dark Matter. Cute droids coming to the rescue of Ensign Crusher/Adele. Geeze.

It's high on pew pew pew and absurd character who aren't even part of the crew because writing GOOD, COMPELLING HUMANS is hard. It's always been hard in Star trek. Discovery just gave up. or it never tried.

These are mostly just random thoughts as I can't even hold enough interest to actually review this crap.

This was the franchise that gave us City on the Edge of Forever, The Drumhead, Duet and more.

Not only is it sad for Star Trek... but it's sad for humanity. That this mental gruel is being fed to people as a society.

 

[fireproof78]

yet, for many those moral reference points weren’t and aren’t so shared.

But they can be referenced at least and Osyraa can be held to account by her peers. Not so with Georgiou.

I never wrote it’s “all”, but are you saying that those comments don’t exist? It would be *extremely* simple to find them, honestly.

That wasn't what I said at all. If I misread the implication of right wing be de facto racist I apologize.

Yet that is exactly what happens with Georgiu in the last double episode featuring her, even if Vance doesn’t know it: she’s changed and has accepted that Kelpian-eating is wrong, among other things.

But, she had to learn that herself. There were no peers of her's in the Prime Universe to hold her to account. She had to discover that there is a better way.

Even if the moral lines of different powers are not identical it's not like Osyraa would be ignorant of such standards or even possible other moral points of view. Otherwise, why would she concede on slavery to Vance? Because Vance said so?

Oded Fehr - a brilliant actor - having to explain that they're eating shit. That's what we've come to. That's a joke from the Orville really.

Came from Enterprise originally.

Not only is it sad for Star Trek... but it's sad for humanity. That this mental gruel is being fed to people as a society.

How so? What does this show say about us as a species? Never mind the multiple episodes that are ridiculous on their face, or racist or just plain stupid. No, this is the line where our species is somehow deficient for daring to produce?

I hope you find something more of your palate then.

 

[Deks]

I don't remember them saying anything about immunity so I take it this is pure speculation.

You are correct that there was no mention of an 'immunity' per say, but from the ENT episode with Orion females, we saw that Human females (and also T'Pol and Tucker because of their shared telepathic link) were not affected.
That's why I said that if the writers wanted to create a situation with a gay male being unaffected by Orion female pheromones, they could have used brain chemistry explanation as to why gay men are unaffected (much like heterosexual females).

At any rate, since it was never mentioned and we subsequently saw Orion females serving in Starfleet, we can only speculate a reason that Stafleet Medical developed a serum which is given to all Federation citizens and SF personnel as part of their vaccine immunizations at birth from 23rd century onward which protects against Orion female pheromones.

 

[Discofan]

You are correct that there was no mention of an 'immunity' per say, but from the ENT episode with Orion females, we saw that Human females (and also T'Pol and Tucker because of their shared telepathic link) were not affected.
That's why I said that if the writers wanted to create a situation with a gay male being unaffected by Orion female pheromones, they could have used brain chemistry explanation as to why gay men are unaffected (much like heterosexual females).

At any rate, since it was never mentioned and we subsequently saw Orion females serving in Starfleet, we can only speculate a reason that Stafleet Medical developed a serum which is given to all Federation citizens and SF personnel as part of their vaccine immunizations at birth from 23rd century onward which protects against Orion female pheromones.

I wouldn't use Enterprise as a reference. What are the chances that a crew of eighty people, in majority male, wouldn't include a single gay male? I'd say astronomically close to zero. Apparently, the only male that wasn't seduced by the Orion was trip!!! Plus same thing about the females, they don't mention a single case of a female being attracted to the Orion!!! Phlox makes a sweeping remark that doesn't mention either. I think the whole episode is just idiotic. Probably the worst of the fourth season, but that's just me.

 

[Kevman7987]

Turning the Orions into the Falleen from the Star Wars EU was a waste of an ENT episode.

 

[AntonyF]

How so? What does this show say about us as a species? Never mind the multiple episodes that are ridiculous on their face, or racist or just plain stupid. No, this is the line where our species is somehow deficient for daring to produce?

Just in general, not this episode, it says we are without aspiration. Our two modes are crying and warring (which is I guess quite fitting for as US-originated programme right now).

Even against a backdrop of really shit times, Star Trek was about being BETTER.

Aspiration.

Science. Ex astra scienta. From the stars knowledge.

We seem to have lost the ability to star gaze and aspire to be just be better. And Star Trek is not an appointed moral guardian to this point, but it did it well. Star Trek of old amongst all the drudgery and sillyness held that at its core.

The writers are kind of selfish now. They don't write to aspire. They don't write for a wide audience. They don't have the ability to even write for human characters in a normal way. Just being boring. Just trying to be better. That's too dull. It's far easier to write aliens and pew pew. And even that they don't do well.

 

[BillJ]

We seem to have lost the ability to star gaze and aspire to be just be better. And Star Trek is not an appointed moral guardian to this point, but it did it well. Star Trek of old amongst all the drudgery and sillyness held that at its core.

It is something that defined Star Trek and has definitely been lost in the current era.

 

[fireproof78]

I disagree. Georgiou's whole arc was about being better. But, that's me. I view crying as a strength not a weakness.

But, I think that letting Trek stop being our measure of humanity's worth and ambition would be wise.

 

[137th Gebirg]

The message of aspiration is still there - the desire to rebuild the Federation and preserve its core principles by rejecting Ossyra and the Chain, despite the opportunity it may present to join with them.

I think it’s more a problem of the way the message is being presented.

 

[fireproof78]

I guess so. The message has been clear to me from the word go.

I don't see Trek's current approach as less aspirational than before. It's just more willing to acknowledge how deep dark times can go.

Or, maybe I'm the weird one who doesn't need TV show to aspire to be better or think better of humanity.

 

[jackoverfull]

Oded Fehr - a brilliant actor - having to explain that they're eating shit. That's what we've come to. That's a joke from the Orville really.

I can’t agree with most of your post, but you are spot on here: that was very Orville (and felt a bit out of place to me).

But they can be referenced at least and Osyraa can be held to account by her peers. Not so with Georgiou.

Because you decided so.

That wasn't what I said at all. If I misread the implication of right wing be de facto racist I apologize.

Very well. The only implications I made is that 1) values of right and wrong are not as shared as one might want to believe even in our limited, human societies; 2) racism is still alive and well, as is the will of “killing the different” and clear traces of those mentalities can easily be found in right wing discussion groups, which is a different thing than saying that all right-wingers are racists or all racists right-wingers.

But, she had to learn that herself. There were no peers of her's in the Prime Universe to hold her to account. She had to discover that there is a better way.

Even if the moral lines of different powers are not identical it's not like Osyraa would be ignorant of such standards or even possible other moral points of view. Otherwise, why would she concede on slavery to Vance? Because Vance said so?

One can study other cultures without necessarily sharing their values. Osyraa’s people obviously studied the history of the Federation to draft that treaty and predicted that maintaining slavery would have been impossible if they wanted the treaty to succeeded. This doesn’t mean that Osyraa and her peers believe slavery to be immoral, just politically inconvenient at the moment.

Speaking of the morality of slavery, we, as self-appointed citizens of “civilized” countries may believe it to be immoral, yet turn a blind eye to the many places where it’s still practiced more or less in the open for our own direct gain and try to forget that not long ago its presence was considered the natural order of things in the same places we live.

 

[BillJ]

Or, maybe I'm the weird one who doesn't need TV show to aspire to be better or think better of humanity.

It isn't about "needing it", but it was something that made Trek stick out amongst a lot of other shows. Now? I have trouble telling Discovery and Picard apart from something like The Expanse.

For whatever flaws TNG had (and there were many), that these were people who by-and-large wanted to do the right thing and didn't have poisonous baggage between them was unique. It may not be coincidence that the more that Trek moved away from that vision of the future the more the viewership declined.

But that's just my view from the cheap seats.

 

[BillJ]

Because you decided so.

Unless Georgiou goes back to the Mirror Universe to stand trial for her crimes, she can never be held accountable by her peers in that universe. You know? Where she committed her crimes...

 

[fireproof78]

Because you decided so.

Fair. How would you judge Georgiou?

1) values of right and wrong are not as shared as one might want to believe even in our limited, human societies; 2) racism is still alive and well, a

I wouldn't argue that.

Speaking of the morality of slavery, we, as self-appointed citizens of “civilized” countries may believe it to be immoral, yet turn a blind eye to the many places where it’s still practiced more or less in the open for our own direct gain and try to forget that not long ago its presence was considered the natural order of things in the same places we live.

I am aware and advocate against it.

 

[fireproof78]

It isn't about "needing it", but it was something that made Trek stick out amongst a lot of other shows. Now? I have trouble telling Discovery and Picard apart from something like The Expanse.

For whatever flaws TNG had (and there were many), that these were people who by-and-large wanted to do the right thing and didn't have poisonous baggage between them was unique. It may not be coincidence that the more that Trek moved away from that vision of the future the more the viewership declined.

But that's just my view from the cheap seats.

I still see it. It just requires more work.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Not only is it sad for Star Trek... but it's sad for humanity. That this mental gruel is being fed to people as a society.

It's just a TV show, so was TOS. Those "benchmarks" aren't really that high in the greater scheme of things

 

[Iconian]

What's with the holo?