Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 3x12 - "There Is A Tide…"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Commander Richard, Dec 30, 2020.

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Rate the episode...

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  1. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Garth of Algar Premium Member

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    Gotta watch out for space apples
    [​IMG]
     
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  2. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    See what climbing in trees gets you? Irresponsible hippie.
     
  3. Jax

    Jax Admiral Admiral

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    Didn't go to Memory Alpha.

    Onscreen (AKA Canon) It has always been used in regards to interfering with the internal politics of other races that has no bearing on the Federation and no First Contact with Pre-Warp races.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2021
  4. Fateor

    Fateor Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    If you didn't go to Memory Alpha how did you copy and past the the first paragraph from the Prime Directive article on their page?
     
  5. Jax

    Jax Admiral Admiral

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    [​IMG]

    I already knew what it was but cba to type it all out.

    Starfleet's do not fire first mantra isn't born directly out of the Prime Directive but more from Starfleet's Rules of Engagement since they are the goods guys after all in Star Trek. Starfleet has many Directive's and regulations but the Prime is simply about Non-Interference.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2021
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  6. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    You make a really good point about the Emperor. someone that never renounced anything of her past (as far as he knew) and not only engaged in slavery and murder, but routinely performed cannibalism on her subjects, was allowed to remain on discovery and no “trial” was ever suggested, but with reformist Osyraa Vance has to be super-strict. I guess that Osyraa in not the only bipolar one after all!
     
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  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    One is timeline where those principles would be expected while another is where such behavior was actively encouraged. And Vance would have no say over Georgiou as a Terran leader, while Osyrra he is able to act in accordance with well known principles and beliefs and enforcement of accepted laws.

    It's not 1 to 1.
     
  8. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    No actually it hasn't. During the TOS TV era the prime directive only came into effect with primitive cultures who have no knowledge of spaceflight or life on other planets. (InTOS that's how they got around the situation where they did make treaties with some primitive cultures - IE once said cultures were aware of life on other worlds; the prime directive was out the window.

    The TNG era is where the prime directive got elevated to a ridiculous level. In fact the way it was interpreted during the TNG era, you'd have to wonder how they made trade agreements with any other worlds; because with the way Picard and others often interpreted it, that could be seen as 'interfering'.

    It looks like with respect to ST: D they've gone back to the TOS era interpretation of the prime directive; which means that if a culture has FTL capable ships; or is aware of life on other worlds, the Federation considers them 'equals' that can both be negotiated with and interacted with politically.
     
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  9. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    you keep ignoring the fact that whatever action Osyraa did was totally legal under the jurisdiction she was under. She was born in a government that already did “evil deeds”, just like he Emperor, but she is now trying to change it, as opposed to what Georgiu ever admitted to wanting to do (as far as Vance knows).
     
  10. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Except, Osyraa knows it is wrong and Vance is capable of putting legal pressure against her. He had no such position with Georgiou.

    It's not just legality but also how much moral and legal responsibility Vance and the Federation could have. Another timeline is not their jurisdiction.
     
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  11. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

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    Technically - another Star Empire isn't the Federation's jurisdiction either. Vance's position is valid though because the Emerald Chain wants to form an alliance with the Federation and benefit from the Federation's reputation, and that's the only reason the Federation would in effect get a say about Osyra's actions that are against Federation laws.
     
  12. unimatrix7

    unimatrix7 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Boy this season has tumbled off a (pretty high) cliff after Unification III.

    I wanted to know what Teh Burn was and we had that damp squib and now I don’t even care what’s happening. We had the DS9 Mirror Universe retreads a couple of weeks back, some poor-man’s Joe Menosky last week, and now - I dunno, Basics? Power Play? Rascals? - this week. In one of Jammers reviews he talks about the early season premise of rediscovering and rebuilding the Federation. But the Federation being now ‘a single set and one admiral.’

    Usually I love the talking about alliances and borders and treaties and stuff. Ronald D Moore was really great at that kind of thing. But this was hilariously daft. Osyraa is as interesting a villain as the Pakled and I don’t care about, nor am troubled by, her sad trading alliance and how many stembolts she wants to trade - or whatever tedious h*ckery she spent half the episode debating with the admiral.

    Dear lord this is grim.
     
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  13. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    maybe.

    How so? The chain is not in the federation and hasn’t been for a over a century.
    Georgiu was technically at his mercy. She was no longer head of state and was officially serving in starfleet (even if the writer glossed over that detail after the second episode of the season). If anything, Georgiu was very much his responsibility as head of starfleet, what goes on within another government’s borders are hardly his business.

    Let’s imagine that in the 60s Krushev went to Kennedy and proposed demilitarization and an alliance and Kennedy answered he would consider it only if Krushev stepped down and accepted to be tried for his “crimes” by an American tribunal. How do you think it would have went?

    meanwhile, Hitler is serving in the US navy and no one think he might deserve a trial.
     
  14. Angry Fanboy

    Angry Fanboy Captain Captain

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    Vance promised her a fair trial, which she'd have no doubt recieved. Osyraa was fine making concessions on behalf of the Emerald Chain until one of those concessions directly impacted her - at which point her toys were immediately thrown out of the pram and she stormed off (and almost immediately disintegrated someone point blank who the Chain had enslaved for years).

    Actions have consequences.
     
  15. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    I’m sure Kennedy would have promised Krushev a fair trial as well. Realistically, wha would have happened?
     
  16. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    But yeah, action have consequences and now millions will remain slaves and keep suffering. Also, having Osyraa spent political influences on an alliance proposal that went nowhere, the reactionary part of the Chain could come up empowered, pushing any chance of peace far in the future.

    or at least this is what would likely happen in real life, we all know that Michael will save the galaxy and we’re in for a simplistic solution on Thursday.
     
  17. Angry Fanboy

    Angry Fanboy Captain Captain

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    So there's no consequence then? Whatever crimes, whatever atrocities Osyraa has comitted gets a pass from Starfleet. Where does that end? Blow up a planet, kill billions, but don't worry that's in the past now. Water under the bridge.
     
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  18. jackoverfull

    jackoverfull Commodore Commodore

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    In the real world...pretty much. And realistically, if every government declared holy wars to avenge other government’s perceived crimes, rebuking any peace offer short of a total surrender, the world would be at war constantly.
     
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  19. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Politics and justice have little to do with each other, unfortunately.
     
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  20. Angry Fanboy

    Angry Fanboy Captain Captain

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    Well Admiral Vance and Starfleet weren't willing to give Osyraa's crimes a free pass. So there you go.
     
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