I liked all of the jj Trek movies
No, 7 of 9 was far better for the doctor. Kes was just so bland.If nothing else, Kes gave The Doctor someone to play off of and helped him evolve more than anyone else, at least in the early days. I'd take her over Kim for that if for no other reason.
I suppose YMMV depending on how you feel about The Doctor in general.
Depending on script, can't they all be disliked? (Well, some could be disliked and inconsistently early on, but retooled purpose and direction elevated everyone up consistently and more...)
For example, in TNG, "Justice" treats Yar and Riker incredibly poorly - to a standard that even the worst of TOS couldn't achieve, apart from maybe one brief moment in one episode briefly, but TNG show was supposed to have humans be more evolved or something. Of course, Riker in "Silicon Avatar" is so disgusting that the only reason to keep watching is what the big bad crystal is doing... only to see how badly the rest of the story goes on its perfectly carved and contrived soapbox. Thankfully other episodes throughout the series' run like "The Pegasus", "First Contact", "A Matter of Honor", etc balance it out and more. He was never consistently bad. No character in season 1 was, but the low points could be pretty irritation-inducing.
Give Geordi a technical or command problem and he's on the mark or more. As the show veered more toward soap opera, that's when the cringey "let's have him date but botch it, audiences will yum it up!" starts to both get prominence and also promptly come off the wrong way*. Never mind season 6 where by then the scripting for most character "development" also goes down the tubes more often, "Aquiel" now has him rummaging through personal logs - at least while everyone thought she was dead and ostensibly to try to find out a possible reason for everyone being killed and stuff - but then the script still places far more emphasis on the luuuurve life -- yet egain, and aren't we all lucky Aquiel was actually alive? (At least there's a scene reflecting on it, rendering the Leah saga the worst. But apparentrly there's nothing about his character anymore than "Can't get laid because he's socially awkward off-duty or something, also throw in Leah's name at every conceivable moment no matter what even though he knew it was a computer simulation he read too far into" by this point? I'm also amazed Geordi didn't try to make a pass at Beverly in the already namesake-deserved "Disaster" episode...)
Geordi isn't alone with bad moments; Troi often states the obvious because writers couldn't make full and proper use of her abilities. But she is the sole reason that humans survived 'Encounter at Farpoint' as nobody else had a clue. Her speech to Picard in "The Ensigns of Command" about communication is top tier. Her mother is a hoot most of the time. Technically, she saves the Enterprise saucer from crashing in the wrong angle that would kill everyone - but between promotion in season 7 and the crash she learned to be a pilot worthy of Riker's abilities in a matter of months (which the stardates told confirm). Are starship saucer models easier to handle than big airplanes handled by fresh graduates of airplane school having to make an emergency landing? Perhaps. But at least it wasn't Wesley... Overlook the universal translator and certain other issues, her and using her abilities to save her bacon in "The Face of the Enemy" is also good all in all. But otherwise she's saying "Captain he's doing the obvious" when not guzzling chocolate in her quarters or Ten Forward, missing only a large funnel. Again, great character but no consistent direction.
Beverly, particularly post-Pulaski and far more so after season 4, can be a real whiny nit at times. She's the most insufferable in "I, Borg" where Riker and Picard have to explain it multiple times to her that the Borg are being Borg (and she was there at the time firsthand as well!), and for a medical professional she's giving the exact opposite of what to do in a depressurized situation in, yup, "Disaster".
Picard can make anything sound good, even if it's to sit by and let billions die. People critique Janeway's inconsistencies, and apologies to the theme of a certain 1970s sitcom, ♪ but then there's Jean- ♫ Luc comes to mind. It's no wonder Q keeps appearing, just not for that particular reason.
Moogie and everyone saying her name was just horrid comic relief fodder aimed at the audience rather than in-narrative story flow. Even the worst of Neelix doesn't end up as comparison. and Neelix had a narrative reason for his chipperness too.
But a character so consistently written throughout the show's entire run? None I can think of. (Even you-know-who-whose-name-cannot-be-mentioned wasn't the same constant cookie cutter crap in season 1.
)
For example, in TNG, "Justice" treats Yar and Riker incredibly poorly - to a standard that even the worst of TOS couldn't achieve, apart from maybe one brief moment in one episode briefly, but TNG show was supposed to have humans be more evolved or something. Of course, Riker in "Silicon Avatar" is so disgusting that the only reason to keep watching is what the big bad crystal is doing... only to see how badly the rest of the story goes on its perfectly carved and contrived soapbox. Thankfully other episodes throughout the series' run like "The Pegasus", "First Contact", "A Matter of Honor", etc balance it out and more. He was never consistently bad. No character in season 1 was, but the low points could be pretty irritation-inducing.
Give Geordi a technical or command problem and he's on the mark or more. As the show veered more toward soap opera, that's when the cringey "let's have him date but botch it, audiences will yum it up!" starts to both get prominence and also promptly come off the wrong way*. Never mind season 6 where by then the scripting for most character "development" also goes down the tubes more often, "Aquiel" now has him rummaging through personal logs - at least while everyone thought she was dead and ostensibly to try to find out a possible reason for everyone being killed and stuff - but then the script still places far more emphasis on the luuuurve life -- yet egain, and aren't we all lucky Aquiel was actually alive? (At least there's a scene reflecting on it, rendering the Leah saga the worst. But apparentrly there's nothing about his character anymore than "Can't get laid because he's socially awkward off-duty or something, also throw in Leah's name at every conceivable moment no matter what even though he knew it was a computer simulation he read too far into" by this point? I'm also amazed Geordi didn't try to make a pass at Beverly in the already namesake-deserved "Disaster" episode...)
Geordi isn't alone with bad moments; Troi often states the obvious because writers couldn't make full and proper use of her abilities. But she is the sole reason that humans survived 'Encounter at Farpoint' as nobody else had a clue. Her speech to Picard in "The Ensigns of Command" about communication is top tier. Her mother is a hoot most of the time. Technically, she saves the Enterprise saucer from crashing in the wrong angle that would kill everyone - but between promotion in season 7 and the crash she learned to be a pilot worthy of Riker's abilities in a matter of months (which the stardates told confirm). Are starship saucer models easier to handle than big airplanes handled by fresh graduates of airplane school having to make an emergency landing? Perhaps. But at least it wasn't Wesley... Overlook the universal translator and certain other issues, her and using her abilities to save her bacon in "The Face of the Enemy" is also good all in all. But otherwise she's saying "Captain he's doing the obvious" when not guzzling chocolate in her quarters or Ten Forward, missing only a large funnel. Again, great character but no consistent direction.
Beverly, particularly post-Pulaski and far more so after season 4, can be a real whiny nit at times. She's the most insufferable in "I, Borg" where Riker and Picard have to explain it multiple times to her that the Borg are being Borg (and she was there at the time firsthand as well!), and for a medical professional she's giving the exact opposite of what to do in a depressurized situation in, yup, "Disaster".
Picard can make anything sound good, even if it's to sit by and let billions die. People critique Janeway's inconsistencies, and apologies to the theme of a certain 1970s sitcom, ♪ but then there's Jean- ♫ Luc comes to mind. It's no wonder Q keeps appearing, just not for that particular reason.
Moogie and everyone saying her name was just horrid comic relief fodder aimed at the audience rather than in-narrative story flow. Even the worst of Neelix doesn't end up as comparison. and Neelix had a narrative reason for his chipperness too.
But a character so consistently written throughout the show's entire run? None I can think of. (Even you-know-who-whose-name-cannot-be-mentioned wasn't the same constant cookie cutter crap in season 1.
)* "Booby Trap" starts this trend and in a season that isn't anything as soap-operaey and/or soapboxey as later years, but he is told personal log content are off-limits (which likely includes marital status, since otherwise Computer is assuming with a big margin of error rather a lot and Geordi was not asking for that as such in the artificial personality. The simulation with a 9.37% margin of error (told to him) and it's the computer that decided he needed a backrub for which he even said 'no' and the same computer came up with the "when you're touching it" shlock. He also told the computer "Computer, exit holodeck. End program." Not to save it. So that's a teensy little retcon when mining for plot drama gold iron pyrite that became a big moment in "Galaxy's Child" and that's when the real problem of "stick figure Geordi" started.
1. Neelix (I don't care about the rules, he's an annoying creep)
2. Tuvok (confuses being Vulcan with just being boring and stuck up)
3. B'Elanna (similarly confuses being Klingon with acting like a stressed out housewife on a bad family sitcom)
Not a Voyager fan as you might have gathered. Lots of ST characters weren't developed properly (Travis, Hoshi, Harry, the TOS cast outside the big 3) but I don't actively dislike them.
2. Tuvok (confuses being Vulcan with just being boring and stuck up)
3. B'Elanna (similarly confuses being Klingon with acting like a stressed out housewife on a bad family sitcom)
Not a Voyager fan as you might have gathered. Lots of ST characters weren't developed properly (Travis, Hoshi, Harry, the TOS cast outside the big 3) but I don't actively dislike them.
I'd say the most unjustly hated was Wesley Crusher. I was around the same age as Will Wheaton and totally understood what it was like to have people dismiss your opinions because "you're just a kid." I was surprised to discover years later that the character was hated so much.
Wesley was never as bad as people claim
My like of Wesley on TNG follows essentially a bell curve. I find him pretty insufferable in his first multiple appearances, especially when he does things that by all rights the adults should have been able to do or figure out on their own.
As he matures I find him more interesting and less cringe, especially in "The Game" (which hilariously has everyone else acting like kids) and "The First Duty", which showed Wesley to be as fatally fallible as anyone else.
His cameo in "Parallels" was great for being a blink-and-you-miss-it moment.
...and then came "Journey's End", and, for me, the less said about Wesley's part in that episode, the better.
His cameo in PIC was (more than) a bit random and felt like service (though not necessarily fanservice), but I found him fairly entertaining in PROD.
As he matures I find him more interesting and less cringe, especially in "The Game" (which hilariously has everyone else acting like kids) and "The First Duty", which showed Wesley to be as fatally fallible as anyone else.
His cameo in "Parallels" was great for being a blink-and-you-miss-it moment.
...and then came "Journey's End", and, for me, the less said about Wesley's part in that episode, the better.
His cameo in PIC was (more than) a bit random and felt like service (though not necessarily fanservice), but I found him fairly entertaining in PROD.
I didn't agree with his story in "Journey's End" either. I've heard Ronald D Moore's explanation "Not everyone wants to be in Starfleet." IMO, that was completely opposite everything I knew about the character. That arc only works if the character was completely oblivious to Starfleet life before joining, which wasn't Wesley. He had spent years on a federation starship working in various departments, so it's not like he would get to the academy and all of sudden not want that way of life. I could see the mirror version of Wesley doing that, but not prime universe Wesley.
I'm absolutely fine with "Not everyone wants to be in Starfleet." Jake Sisko's great!
But his coming back with an awful attitude toward his friends and kinda-sorta having it handwaved with "He's evolving!" I mean, grumpy teenagers I get, but this was beyond the pale.
Agree.
Jake Sisko worked fine. His entire ambition was to be a writer, not join Starfleet and follow his dad's footsteps. Even if he had tried and then quit the academy, I would have bought it because nothing in Jake's history showed that he had the ambition, nor was capable of handling that way of life.
We have seasons of Wesley living the life of a Starfleet officer on the federation flagship. After dealing with the Borg and everything else the Enterprise ran across, the Academy would be a picnic in comparison. I just dont believe a character like that would wake up one day and say "F this thing Ive worked my whole life for."
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Too old not to know what he wants, too young to have a mid-life crisis?
I don't know.
I knew someone who's father and three older brothers served in the Army and he was expected to as well.
He did the whole ROTC in high school, graduated, joined the academy, almost made it through basic before deciding that it wasn't for him and got a discharge for medical/mental health reasons.
I knew someone who's father and three older brothers served in the Army and he was expected to as well.
He did the whole ROTC in high school, graduated, joined the academy, almost made it through basic before deciding that it wasn't for him and got a discharge for medical/mental health reasons.
The difference is he didnt spend years working in the army and living that lifestyle before he went to basic. It also sounds like he joined because he was expected to, not because he really wanted to. Wesley spent years working and living in starfleet so he already had experienced the life before going to the academy.
I find it amusing that in real life Wil Wheaton went on to do movies and TV shows where he was a hammy bad guy.
Is there any where he wasn't a baddy?
Is there any where he wasn't a baddy?
Wesley Crusher was not in Picard. Only Wil Wheaton was. I don't know what direction he was given, or what the script said, but he was just playing himself, not Wesley Crusher, in that scene.
not me…but I always thought Chakotay was the most universally hated Trek character.
As for me, I never liked Eddington. But the whole “turn on Starfleet and join the Maquis” storyline actually did make me hate the character. Even if it did give us a couple good episodes.
As for me, I never liked Eddington. But the whole “turn on Starfleet and join the Maquis” storyline actually did make me hate the character. Even if it did give us a couple good episodes.
For a mob boss's jaded son, he was loyally good in TOY SOLDIERS. So loyal he got himself killed rather than abandon Sean Astin and multiple other buddies. Arguably the most unexpected croaking in a thriller since Anthony Perkins bought it in THE BLACK HOLE.
1) Lwaxana Troi. Horribly annoying and she wore her welcome out quickly.
2) Neelix. (Sorry. I know you requested we not include him, but he's sincerely one of my most hated characters. He was thoroughly obnoxious.)
3) The TOS version of Nurse Chapel. Outside of "What Are Little Girls Made Of?", every scene she had was just about mooning over Spock, with no progression or development. Just a waste of screentime just to give the producer's girlfriend a part on the show.
Honorable mention to Deanna Troi. Bland, gave horrible advice, and was crap at her job.
2) Neelix. (Sorry. I know you requested we not include him, but he's sincerely one of my most hated characters. He was thoroughly obnoxious.)
3) The TOS version of Nurse Chapel. Outside of "What Are Little Girls Made Of?", every scene she had was just about mooning over Spock, with no progression or development. Just a waste of screentime just to give the producer's girlfriend a part on the show.
Honorable mention to Deanna Troi. Bland, gave horrible advice, and was crap at her job.
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I'll advise you to sit down as we are in nearly-total agreement.
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