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Spoilers Strange New Worlds General Discussion Thread

Re. subtlety: The early days of TNG were particularly egregious, by having the Enterprise visit other planets and cultures who were not as "evolved" as 24th century humans. Picard or one of the crew would arrogantly sniff their smug disdain at the backward little aliens, point out their faults and condescendingly browbeat and lecture them on how to be better people like them. Hardly any attempts at subtlety whatsoever.

It is more subtle to critique humans of ‘now’ by having ‘aliens’ in the future be slightly exaggerated versions who are shown the error of their ways by the human characters the audience identifies with to some extent, than have the human characters of the future behave more like the humans of ‘now’. That people feel they cannot identify with the ‘perfect’ humans of the 24th Century, or even at least aspire to do so, says more about us now than anything else.

The same is true of DSC and the modern shows, (and as you say, Picards crew to some extent in TNG) where it does sometimes seem the right to be an arrogant sod is something humans don’t want to give up. And no Q to pick them up on this. (Q does to Picard what Picard does to the Eloi. It might almost be a point being made...)
 
Re. subtlety: The early days of TNG were particularly egregious, by having the Enterprise visit other planets and cultures who were not as "evolved" as 24th century humans. Picard or one of the crew would arrogantly sniff their smug disdain at the backward little aliens, point out their faults and condescendingly browbeat and lecture them on how to be better people like them. Hardly any attempts at subtlety whatsoever.

One reason I love Seven of Nine. She called Janeway (and Starfleet) out on their attitude problem ("You are hypocritical, manipulative. We do not want to be what you are!")

Starfleet is NOT all that and a bag of chips -- and Seven knew it.
 
One reason I love Seven of Nine. She called Janeway (and Starfleet) out on their superiority complex ("You are hypocritical, manipulative. We do not want to be what you are!")

There is always a character doing that in Trek. Sadly, seven is once again being used for sexy character/fan service to draw the crowd in Picard. That may change, but as the Borg stuff ultimately didn’t really go anywhere yet in that show, it remains to be seen.
 
There is always a character doing that in Trek.

I do recall TNG making references to "ugly bags of mostly water."

Sadly, seven is once again being used for sexy character/fan service to draw the crowd in Picard. That may change, but as the Borg stuff ultimately didn’t really go anywhere yet in that show, it remains to be seen.

She's much more than that.

She's a dark, complicated character in her own right and a great foil for Picard.
 
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There is always a character doing that in Trek. Sadly, seven is once again being used for sexy character/fan service to draw the crowd in Picard. That may change, but as the Borg stuff ultimately didn’t really go anywhere yet in that show, it remains to be seen.
Then it is the least sexy way to attract this viewer.
 
There is always a character doing that in Trek. Sadly, seven is once again being used for sexy character/fan service to draw the crowd in Picard. That may change, but as the Borg stuff ultimately didn’t really go anywhere yet in that show, it remains to be seen.
Fanservice to a limited degree, as it adds another favorite "legacy" character to a new show, but she's far from the boobot pigeonhole that the showrunners attempted to squeeze her into, along with her unfortunate catsuit. I am grateful that they knew how to evolve her into something better than before, while still maintaining core elements of the character's personality. And Ryan does an excellent job in either case. So, I'm okay with this kind of fanservice. :)
 
I do recall TNG making references to "ugly bags of mostly water."



She's much more than that.

She's a dark, complicated character in her own right and a great foil for Picard.

Seven is not the sexy fan service character in Picard. I don't think there's any character in modern Trek that I would call the sexy fan-service character. Modern Trek is way less overtly sexy and exploitative than it was in the Berman era.

Then it is the least sexy way to attract this viewer.

Fanservice to a limited degree, as it adds another favorite "legacy" character to a new show, but she's far from the boobot pigeonhole that the showrunners attempted to squeeze her into, along with her unfortunate catsuit. I am grateful that they knew how to evolve her into something better than before, while still maintaining core elements of the character's personality. And Ryan does an excellent job in either case. So, I'm okay with this kind of fanservice. :)

Fan service in the mundane sense yes: Here’s that one you remember!
But also consider, Seven, Lesbian icon in the nineties fandom (J/7 was a big thing) is back. And now, she is confirmed as gay. Also, plenty of people dig the Sarah Connor chic that is Sevens new non-spice girl era look, male and female.
Just because *you* are not the target for a ‘sexy’ character draw, doesn’t mean that isn’t the plan.
Prior to Picard the series she had zero history with the character (see also: why Jeri turned down a cameo in Nemesis, which ironically would have served Picard well in hindsight.) but the Borg stuff provides just enough context... everything else is implied through dialogue that there’s a history we *didn’t* see.

And yes, don’t get me wrong, Ryan as an actress brought more to the role than T&A then, and has this time too, but don’t think these things don’t surface in an execs mind. Anytime a ripped dude has his shirt off on Trek, it’s not entirely to advance the plot or world building either. And that goes back to Bill Shatner.
 
Trans issues in a human race that has advanced medical technology like genetronic replicators, pills that grow kidneys, access to full on telepaths and empaths, and literally disassembles and reassembles people on the molecular level like we go to bathroom (but conversely has banned genetic engineering) makes zero sense. 100 percent changing biological sex *would* be possible in Trek, probably at any point in a humans life, and diagnosis is as easy a Betazoid meeting a person and going ‘yup’.
So that’s the in universe reason for needing allegory. There’s no need for intermediate ‘they’ stages in the process.
Don't get me wrong, I would do unspeakable things for the capability to easily alter my body to be a 100% match for a cisgendered person matching my identity. But I don't want trans performers and trans characters be denied their chance at representation in my favorite franchise just because the capabilities of the gender-affirming medical options existing today don't fit into the imagined state of technological development of a fictional setting where they "should" be indistinguishable from cis people. But this is a moot point anyway, because there are a lot of trans people who actually don't want to transition medically, and their identities are just as valid as anyone else's. Not to mention nonbinary people, like Adira who has shown no indication of not feeling comfortable in their own body at all. And even if one undergoes the be-all and end-all of the fabled "magic sex change", they don't magically cease to be transgender. They will still remember growing up as their AGAB and transitioning will be a part of their identity as their personal journey and history. Unless you want to argue they're handled like babies born with tails, their bodies "fixed" before they leave the hospital, never ever to learn the truth about their birth. To a cis person, that might sound neat, elegant and utopian. To trans people, it just sounds like yet another fantastical "miracle cure" that would fix them by erasing them and taking away their freedom of choice regarding their identity.
 
Don't get me wrong, I would do unspeakable things for the capability to easily alter my body to be a 100% match for a cisgendered person matching my identity. But I don't want trans performers and trans characters be denied their chance at representation in my favorite franchise just because the capabilities of the gender-affirming medical options existing today don't fit into the imagined state of technological development of a fictional setting where they "should" be indistinguishable from cis people. But this is a moot point anyway, because there are a lot of trans people who actually don't want to transition medically, and their identities are just as valid as anyone else's. Not to mention nonbinary people, like Adira who has shown no indication of not feeling comfortable in their own body at all. And even if one undergoes the be-all and end-all of the fabled "magic sex change", they don't magically cease to be transgender. They will still remember growing up as their AGAB and transitioning will be a part of their identity as their personal journey and history. Unless you want to argue they're handled like babies born with tails, their bodies "fixed" before they leave the hospital, never ever to learn the truth about their birth. To a cis person, that might sound neat, elegant and utopian. To trans people, it just sounds like yet another fantastical "miracle cure" that would fix them by erasing them and taking away their freedom of choice regarding their identity.

<3
 
Put it this way.... Let This Be Your Last Battlefield is subtle compared to some of modern Trek.
One of the problems with writing ‘issue’ Trek, is its supposed to be in a utopian future where most of not all our ‘problems’ are already done and dealt with. So Trek typically uses alien races to talk about ‘now’ in the ‘future’. That way, you get the message in without offending the part of the audience the message is for.
Trans issues in a human race that has advanced medical technology like genetronic replicators, pills that grow kidneys, access to full on telepaths and empaths, and literally disassembles and reassembles people on the molecular level like we go to bathroom (but conversely has banned genetic engineering) makes zero sense. 100 percent changing biological sex *would* be possible in Trek, probably at any point in a humans life, and diagnosis is as easy a Betazoid meeting a person and going ‘yup’.
So that’s the in universe reason for needing allegory. There’s no need for intermediate ‘they’ stages in the process.
Out of universe, if you are trying to get through to an audience hostile to trans issues, then it’s no good rubbing their face in it, because that’s how you alienate the audience you are trying to reach. Spock has a *ton* of stuff to do with the difficulties of being ‘mixed-race’ and living as part of two cultures, at a time where acknowledging that is even a thing was tantamount to heresy. But, not once did the audience complain about that that I know of. And maybe, just maybe, when Johnny Appleseed the Fifth met their half-Vietnamese granddaughter a couple of years later, Spock helped that relationship.
I wouldn't call Let this be your last battlefield "subtle" Trek allegory has never been subtle, its kind of pointless when I was 3 minutes in "Stigma" and said oh this about aids
 
That I think is more a product of current culture and social discourse than anything else. Discussion is not meant to demonstrated better ideas to another but just be right a lot of times, and art reflects that. I think there is also a trend towards not trusting the audience with any real allegory. I think current productions are past the point of messaging without offense.
I would say Trek allegories have been very unsubtle or bad because they didn't think them through like Pa'nar syndrome
 
Although the Vulcan AIDS allegory in ENT was deliberate and meant to be in your face as an allegory to AIDS. Berman and Braga weren't even attempting to be subtle and any problems with the story of that episode were in the hamfisted way the Beebs tended to write such topics and/or present them in final episode form.
 
Although the Vulcan AIDS allegory in ENT was deliberate and meant to be in your face as an allegory to AIDS. Berman and Braga weren't even attempting to be subtle and any problems with the story of that episode were in the hamfisted way the Beebs tended to write such topics and/or present them in final episode form.
There are plenty of earlier TNG episodes such as "The outcast" that are terribly on the nose as well
Also that makes a problem when T'pol getting aids is because she got her mind "violated" by a group of "Melders". I think you broke your Aesop Braga!
 
There are reasons "Fusion" is one of my least-favorite ENT episodes. It tries too damn hard and isn't written very well.
 
There are plenty of earlier TNG episodes such as "The outcast" that are terribly on the nose as well
Also that makes a problem when T'pol getting aids is because she got her mind "violated" by a group of "Melders". I think you broke your Aesop Braga!

I haven’t seen all of it, I am still Enterprise Agnostic despite my efforts, but from what I recall, wasn’t it also around issues of consent and doing it (melding) safely? (Which of course, is a probably with Spock because he melds with anything that moves if it likes it or not. That Horta has a case is all.) Which is probably part of the Aesop.
 
I don't know if it's worse when they try to be subtle or when they give it up completely and decide to go full-on explicit.
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