Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x11 - "The Wolf Inside"

[Sebine_91]

So with Lorca's smirk...

Couldn't the guy have just seen the irony played out in front of him concerning Burnham and Georgiou?

I mean, obviously he knew about their relationship and what happened between them in the prime universe. The twist of fate shown in this episode would have felicitated a smirk from me, too, had I been in his same position.

Solid episode, but 7/10 for me personally. For reference "5" would be an average Star Trek episode. Visitor, BOBW, etc IMHO are 9's - just want to give some perspective.

My thought exactly

This was my initial reaction as well. Personally, I hope Lorca isn't MU Lorca as we've already got one imposter story line going with Voq/Tyler. Also, one of the things which makes Lorca interesting to me is that you're constantly musing on whether he's a 'good man' or not - whether he is doing the right thing and whether his heart is in the right place; if it is revealed he's from the MU then all of that can be put down to just 'he's Terran and so he's evil', which cheapens the character a bit in my opinion.

 

[Longinus]

I gave this six, just like the last episode. It was mostly a really well told story, and I liked many of the character moments, I just don't care about this whole detour to the mirror universe at all. I never liked the mirror universe, it doesn't make even least bit of sense and regardless of that it was way too early. We don't really know this version of the regular universe well yet, so showing the mirror side so soon is kinda wasted. Furthermore, I'm still livid about Culber's fate, though I'm trying to not let it affect my enjoyment of the show too much.

And as many others have, I too have to wonder what sort of sensors they have. Sure, Burnham obviously called Discovery to beam up Tyler/Voq, but how did they get to the beam range or how did the Emperor's ship get to the firing range without Shenzhou noticing? It really makes no sense. And as much as I wanted to see Georgiou again, I really don't want to see evil Georgiou. (I'm eternally thankful that there never was a mirror Picard.)

 

[Bay17]

And as much as I wanted to see Georgiou again, I really don't want to see evil Georgiou.

Reading this makes me realise that’s what troubled me about it. She was a great character as a Starfleet captain, albeit very briefly. This is just surprise for the sake of it

 

[Timo]

I am rather satisfied that they are making the MU their thing, rather than a brief comical interlude. Parallel realities mesh well with the spore drive, conceptually.

Don't know about sensors, but the Emperor's ship being invisible was sort of a plot point here. Emperor Sato I knew about Suliban cloaks, and had a man who at the very least knew how to hook up one. The databanks of the Defiant would know about Romulan ones, of course (that is, that those exist), and in light of DSC, also about the Klingon cloaks that had been a thing ten years in their past (possibly much more than just their existence).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Rhodan]

Maybe emperor just got a new cloak.

 

[Vger23]

Tellarites look thin, especially female

Not a lot of burgers and fries on those remote rebel bases.

 

[matthunter]

I wouldn't be surprised if we don't get a Voq/Ty

I am rather satisfied that they are making the MU their thing, rather than a brief comical interlude. Parallel realities mesh well with the spore drive, conceptually.

Don't know about sensors, but the Emperor's ship being invisible was sort of a plot point here. Emperor Sato I knew about Suliban cloaks, and had a man who at the very least knew how to hook up one. The databanks of the Defiant would know about Romulan ones, of course (that is, that those exist), and in light of DSC, also about the Klingon cloaks that had been a thing ten years in their past (possibly much more than just their existence).

Timo Saloniemi

Alternatively - she IS the Emperor... it's not beyond the realms of possibility for the MU that she's had override passwords keyed into the ships she commands (like a personal version of the prefix code) and could thus just hack Shenzou's sensor readings. She wasn't there in a friendly capacity and might already be expecting that Burnham has betrayed her.

 

[Vger23]

Come on. Trek has been riddled with plot holes long since before then. Hell, there are nitpicker books dedicated to it. WoK has giant plot holes, yet many Trek fans gush over it as a masterpiece.

Plus, as pointed out on the previous page, it wasn't even a plot hole. Lazy viewers are at fault, not lazy writers.

TWOK's very existence is enabled by plot holes, continuity gaps, and contrived circumstances. But we all overlook that because TWOK is "good." Hell, it's my favorite. In fact, it's one of the very reasons that extremely early on in my fandom, I dismissed holding Star Trek to any standards of detailed continuity or realism. For me, Star Trek is great fun. It's not a real world, and my enjoyment of it is not dependent upon it showing up like it IS the real world. If I were to hold it to that standard, I would have given up on Trek a very, very long time ago.

When we find something we want to actively dislike, we use those same elements we turn a blind eye to and we use them to justify our opinions. The standards are not consistent when it comes to this kind of thing.

 

[Sebine_91]

For me, Star Trek is great fun. It's not a real world, and my enjoyment of it is not dependent upon it showing up like it IS the real world. If I were to hold it to that standard, I would have given up on Trek a very, very long time ago.

Amen to that! Ultimately, my philosophy is that if I'm enjoying it I'll let it slide. I'm enjoying Discovery so I'm not overly fussed about any contradictions - for example, the ship interiors not looking like The Cage and the Klingons looking different. Other TV shows (Doctor Who is a prime example) have changed the design of aliens over the years without mentioning it. It does seem to be a more modern trope to explain away behind the scenes goings on (redesigns, an actor appearing as another character later on etc.) in shows.

 

[Vger23]

Amen to that! Ultimately, my philosophy is that if I'm enjoying it I'll let it slide. I'm enjoying Discovery so I'm not overly fussed about any contradictions - for example, the ship interiors not looking like The Cage and the Klingons looking different. Other TV shows (Doctor Who is a prime example) have changed the design of aliens over the years without mentioning it. It does seem to be a more modern trope to explain away behind the scenes goings on (redesigns, an actor appearing as another character later on etc.) in shows.

In a way, as much as I love the books, the Michael and Denise Okuda "Encyclopedia" and "Chronology" are some of the worst things that happened to Star Trek, because it set fan expectations that this is one huge, elaborate, carefully planned and woven universe.

It's not, and it really never has been. The Okudas even pretty much acknowledge that it's amazing that it all fits together as well as it does, and that it was essentially by mistake that it ended up that way.

 

[lursa]

This was my initial reaction as well. Personally, I hope Lorca isn't MU Lorca as we've already got one imposter story line going with Voq/Tyler. Also, one of the things which makes Lorca interesting to me is that you're constantly musing on whether he's a 'good man' or not - whether he is doing the right thing and whether his heart is in the right place; if it is revealed he's from the MU then all of that can be put down to just 'he's Terran and so he's evil', which cheapens the character a bit in my opinion.

What if despite being from the MU originally, he is dynamic enough to quickly pick up on the values of the Prime universe and pass as not only good, but a good captain, with only the occasional slip-up - wouldn't that be far more impressive than him being a flawed captain who keeps getting away with violating Starfleet rules & practices without remorse?
"It was far easier for you, as civilized men, to behave like barbarians, than it was for them as barbarians to behave like civilized men."
If anything, I believe this would suggest an inherent capacity for "goodness" in all of the MU characters... and an inherent capacity for "badness" in our Prime friends that takes effort to resist. They're only pushed into having different values because of the society they live in, like we see with Mirror Voq.
MU Sarek doesn't seem to be evil, either, even though he's a solid "good guy" in Prime.
Fundamentally, the people are the same in both universes, but are given sometimes radically different paths to reach their goals. Mirror Lorca or not, this is a much more beautiful treatment of the MU than the cartoonish, black-and-white MU of previous series.

Gorn skeleton and dead tribble in the ready room, though... blowing up his own ship... not seeing the problem with killing all the rebels... that smirk... c'mon, he's totally from the MU

*puts tinfoil hat back on* Also, Burnham said that even the light was different in MU! Mirror Lorca's eyes can't handle the goody-two-shoes Prime Universe light!!

 

[ClintDagger]

Whether or not that’s MU Lorca we’ve been seeing, he wasn’t surprised at all by the identity of the emperor. So to me he’s at a minimum familiar with the MU.

Also, Lorca hasn’t had any issues with his eyes since going to the MU. After all the attention that was previously paid, I feel that should probably mean something to us.

 

[Mr Awe]

That's probably just the "Palace," the flagship of the Terran Empire and constructed to look almost like a city in space. Designed to both awe and intimidate with its sheer size and visual complexity.

It's the equivalent of Princess Ardala's ship in Buck Rogers--a city in space!

 

[Sebine_91]

What if despite being from the MU originally, he is dynamic enough to quickly pick up on the values of the Prime universe and pass as not only good, but a good captain, with only the occasional slip-up - wouldn't that be far more impressive than him being a flawed captain who keeps getting away with violating Starfleet rules & practices without remorse?
"It was far easier for you, as civilized men, to behave like barbarians, than it was for them as barbarians to behave like civilized men."
If anything, I believe this would suggest an inherent capacity for "goodness" in all of the MU characters... and an inherent capacity for "badness" in our Prime friends that takes effort to resist. They're only pushed into having different values because of the society they live in, like we see with Mirror Voq.
MU Sarek doesn't seem to be evil, either, even though he's a solid "good guy" in Prime.
Fundamentally, the people are the same in both universes, but are given sometimes radically different paths to reach their goals. Mirror Lorca or not, this is a much more beautiful treatment of the MU than the cartoonish, black-and-white MU of previous series.

Gorn skeleton and dead tribble in the ready room, though... blowing up his own ship... not seeing the problem with killing all the rebels... that smirk... c'mon, he's totally from the MU

*puts tinfoil hat back on* Also, Burnham said that even the light was different in MU! Mirror Lorca's eyes can't handle the goody-two-shoes Prime Universe light!!

It's a very convincing argument! I was also musing (must stop thinking about Star Trek and be productive! - story of my life ) that whilst "our" Lorca may be from the MU that he may not be on the side of the Empire. Wasn't it said that in the Mirror Universe Lorca tried to kill Burnham? Could it be that he tried to start a revolution and thus in other words, he's a good guy, however, as he's from the MU he's still got some deeply ingrained beliefs/values and thus still does questionable things (like we've seen throughout the series). This would be interesting avenue I think.

I also like the idea, as mentioned by someone else that he's from the MU and that's why he needs "our" Burnham - she's a way to get to the Emperor. As was said, other than it being a rather short series if she didn't end up on Discovery, Lorca did seem really keen to get her on his ship when no doubt there are other Starfleet officers with her skills. Indeed, even after she declines he still wants to persuade her.

 

[Mr Awe]

And the Captain who gave Burnham her orders to destroy the rebels, he came in the "flagship". Could the Defiant be that flagship if it isn't the Empress' personal ship?

Yeah, I'm sure there will be a big show down with the Discovery!

 

[Sebine_91]

In a way, as much as I love the books, the Michael and Denise Okuda "Encyclopedia" and "Chronology" are some of the worst things that happened to Star Trek, because it set fan expectations that this is one huge, elaborate, carefully planned and woven universe.

It's not, and it really never has been. The Okudas even pretty much acknowledge that it's amazing that it all fits together as well as it does, and that it was essentially by mistake that it ended up that way.

For me, trying to fit the continuity together is one of the fun things about being a Trek fan, but I agree people can get too worked up about it. I think that that continuity shouldn't get in the way of telling a compelling story; I was never expecting Discovery to look like an episode of Star Trek Continues.

Whether or not that’s MU Lorca we’ve been seeing, he wasn’t surprised at all by the identity of the emperor. So to me he’s at a minimum familiar with the MU.

Also, Lorca hasn’t had any issues with his eyes since going to the MU. After all the attention that was previously paid, I feel that should probably mean something to us.

Good point! I also imagine being in the Agony Booth all that time wouldn't have been good for his eyes and something tells me that the Terrans don't really attend to any pre-existing medical conditions of their prisoners...

It would also explain why Lorca won't get them fixed (although I thought that was just his personality, he wanted a reminder to make him remember and keep him focused on winning the war) as there wouldn't appear to be anything wrong to a doctor.

 

[Feron]

..It would also explain why Lorca won't get them fixed (although I thought that was just his personality, he wanted a reminder to make him remember and keep him focused on winning the war) as there wouldn't appear to be anything wrong to a doctor.

Either that or he simply does not want any sort of detailed examination whatsoever, since we know that people from the MU have a different quantum signature. It can be masked, but kind of like with Tyler --- a detailed examination might reveal something that the standard scans had not noticed.

 

[David Brown]

No one predicted that Tilly in her Mirror universe getup would make me question my bones deep homosexuality.

Gave this a Like just because it gave me the best laugh of the day. Hilarious. Live Long and Prosper.

 

[Prax]

Lorca needed the cloaking algorithm, not to defeat the Prime Klingons, but to defeat the Emperor's cloak. Things are going exactly as he has planned...I think.

It's interesting how Mirror Voq is the opposite of real Voq.
-Voq is an iconoclast, a hater of all things unklingon, not very clever, and a poor leader.
-Mirror Voq is compassionate, a unifier of worlds, wise, and a strong leader.

However, I don't understand how the Mirror universe can have a Federation. Humans aren't the only "evil" race in the MU, they all are! Humans are simply the ones in charge.
And Burnham speaks of the Federation like it's the Messianic Kingdom, rather than simply a nice place to live.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Lorca needed the cloaking algorithm, not to defeat the Prime Klingons, but to defeat the Emperor's cloak. Things are going exactly as he has planned...I think.

It's interesting how Mirror Voq is the opposite of real Voq.
-Voq is an iconoclast, a hater of all things unklingon, not very clever, and a poor leader.
-Mirror Voq is compassionate, a unifier of worlds, wise, and a strong leader.

However, I don't understand how the Mirror universe can have a Federation. Humans aren't the only "evil" race in the MU, they all are! Humans are simply the ones in charge.
And Burnham speaks of the Federation like it's the Messianic Kingdom, rather than simply a nice place to live.

Couple thoughts,

it isn't the people or race that's evil or not evil, but the circumstances. Voq in the MU isn't much different a person than the PU, the circumstances has him focused differently. In this universe, the purity driven racist humans won, at some point a power struggle. I will assume per human nature there was at least an ideological argument against the racist comings of the Terran empire,

In the face of that there is almost always a coalition against it.

As the Burnham and her view of the federation it's all about perspective, a redneck serving as a marine may view its rules and procedures as necessary to secure a free nation, and would consider himself always a marine.

A redneck in his bunker may view his govt as an evil entity training mindless drones like the marine for a thoughtless war to come where he is the future freedom fighter.

She believes the federation operates on certain ideals and adopts those as her own. Once a Starfleet officer, always a Starfleet officer. On the flipside, Mud is the marine in the bunker.