Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x04 - "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by Commander Richard, Oct 8, 2017.

?

Rate the episode...

  1. 10 - Pure Win!

    9.1%
  2. 9

    22.4%
  3. 8

    22.1%
  4. 7

    20.6%
  5. 6

    9.7%
  6. 5

    5.2%
  7. 4

    3.9%
  8. 3

    3.3%
  9. 2

    2.1%
  10. 1 - Boy did that suck!

    1.5%
  1. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 10, 2005
    Location:
    The visitor's bullpen
    I'll give you the latter. However, Lorca is quite literally the least approachable (Starfleet) captain I have ever seen in Trek. Hell, I'd be more at ease talking to Edward Jellico.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
    SolarisOne likes this.
  2. Feron

    Feron Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    I think that your take on the character is excellent. Lorca feels very real to me, precisely because I've had more than one employer act in similar ways when they are under tremendous pressure to succeed.

    For them, it was not wanting to ever have that "We're closing the place down." speech to employees while obviously for Lorca it is literally a matter of life and death.

    I can understand people not liking him, it is often very unpleasant to work under someone like that. But at least in my personal experience, I would rather work for an abrasive boss who keeps the company afloat than to work for a sweet and gentle one who ultimately leads the company to financial ruin.
     
    137th Gebirg likes this.
  3. BillJ

    BillJ History's Greatest Monster Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Covington, Ky. USA
    Most good managers can keep a company afloat without being a dick. You usually get lesser work from people when you treat them badly.
     
    RedAlert, Biggs, Longinus and 3 others like this.
  4. Feron

    Feron Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    That is sometimes the case, but OTOH when you have an employee literally refusing to do their job, such as Starmets was doing, it is often not possible to resolve the situation in a tranquil fashion, especially when there is a crisis concerning how quickly something is finished and a literal life / death outcome at stake.
     
    137th Gebirg likes this.
  5. BillJ

    BillJ History's Greatest Monster Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2001
    Location:
    Covington, Ky. USA
    Lorca was being a dick because clearly he is a dick who is trying to impress people higher up the chain. I ran into his kind on more than one occasion working in corporate America.

    Many end up flaming out because of a lack of people skills.
     
    SolarisOne likes this.
  6. Feron

    Feron Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    On that I will just have to agree to disagree.

    In my real life job, I once had to translate for an "abrasive" type boss when he was giving a formal reprimand to an employee who did not speak English. When it was over and the employee had returned to his station, the boss that I'm sure said employee would have considered to be an inconsiderate dick literally broke down crying because he absolutely hated having to be abrasive.

    But, as he told me at the time, his options at that point were to either aggressively demand improvement or to fire the employee. Major jobs were on the line and a failure to complete them would result in really bad things for the company.

    In that case at least, the employee was "scared straight", eventually got promoted to management, and now considers that boss that he had thought of as a "dick" as one of the biggest helpers to him in the company.
     
    RedAlert, SolarisOne and 137th Gebirg like this.
  7. Vger23

    Vger23 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2014
    Location:
    New England
    A diverse and thriving society needs both Lorcas and Stammets. They help balance things out.
     
  8. Feron

    Feron Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    On that I agree.

    Any society that begins to demand complete intellectual conformity is one destined to fall.

    And as the series progresses, we may see that balance play out. I can see an argument for allowing the Space Bear to suffer temporary pain in order to save literally thousands of lives and protect the largest Dilithium source for the Federation.

    But clearly if at some future date Lorca demanded a spore jump that would cause pain to another being simply to satisfy his personal curiosity or some other trivial reason then Starmets would be right to object to it.
     
    Vger23, SolarisOne and 137th Gebirg like this.
  9. oberth

    oberth Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2017
    Location:
    (new) berlin
    i don't think starments is the one to object to stuff like that - it'll be burnham - staments isn't the type of guy who's aneasy with a little torture as long as someone else does the dirty work (same with killing klingons)

    ... at least that's my impression so far
     
    Feron likes this.
  10. oberth

    oberth Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2017
    Location:
    (new) berlin
    *uneasy

    please tell me i can edit after two weeks on the forums
     
  11. OpenMaw

    OpenMaw Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 26, 2013
    Location:
    Everett, Washington
    One thing that people seem to be forgetting in this current line of conversation. This isn't corporate America. This is a war where the stakes clearly are life or death as established by the Klingons.

    Lorca being a hardass is perfectly reasonable. Especially given the situation on Corvan. Lorca isn't "being a dick to be a dick" for any personal gain. He has established his motivation pretty clearly. Win the war, as fast and as decisively as possible.

    What will be really interesting to see going forward are the ramifications for what happened at Corvan.
     
    gblews, 137th Gebirg and Feron like this.
  12. Feron

    Feron Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2017
    That indeed might be how It plays out eventually. Obviously, Burnham is the only person that so far has expressed any sympathy for the creature at all.

    But we shall see. The writers might decide to let Starmets redeem himself at a later date, or of course they might just let him stay a whiny entitlement-mentality dick. ;)
     
  13. oberth

    oberth Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2017
    Location:
    (new) berlin
    i would put money (if i were a betting man) on the fact that he also has no problem to torture ripper himself if it is for scientific reasons
     
    Feron likes this.
  14. 137th Gebirg

    137th Gebirg Vice Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2000
    Location:
    PEBCAK! Three miles west of COVFEFE!
    Honestly I think Stamets is one step away from being a conscientious objector. Broadcasting the distress calls from the mine snapped him back into the reality of the situation and any other crew members who may have been having second thoughts were likely brought back into it as well. It really was a brilliant move on Lorca's part to demonstrate what's at stake.
     
    Feron likes this.
  15. cultcross

    cultcross Social distance measurer Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2001
    Location:
    Quarantine zone alpha
    I think he represents the Nobel/Oppenheimer archetype. The scientist appalled at what the military do with his invention. I'm interested to see what his actions will be if/when Lorca takes things too far. Whether he goes along with it, objects in some way overtly, or throws his wooden shoes, called Sabots, into the machinery.
     
    Kemaiku, Gonzo, SolarisOne and 2 others like this.
  16. Refuge

    Refuge Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    How do two arseholes provide a balance??
     
  17. shakham

    shakham Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2012
    So why wouldn't another race scrap the ethics and continue using the tech? Why wouldn't somebody in the future figured out how to use it?

    It's a major motivator to be able to go anywhere instantly. Usually that power is reserved for god creatures and even then, most don't have it. That's how we keep the trek universe sane, the "beyond our understanding" card.

    You can't play that card with the spores.

    That being said you may be able to make the same argument with the genesis I guess, but the spores are much bigger in scope.
     
    Longinus likes this.
  18. Borgminister

    Borgminister Admiral Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2001
    Location:
    California
    One is a civilian scientist, the other a military strategist. You know, like McCoy the crusty doctor and Spock the superior Vulcan.
     
    cultcross, Gonzo and Feron like this.
  19. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Tomorrow Never Knows Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2001
    Location:
    Here, There and Everywhere
    Because it's fiction. The writers decide who gets the Spore Drives, the Genesis Devices, the Guardians of Forever and the Slingshot Effects or why they don't work.
     
    Vger23 and Feron like this.
  20. SolarisOne

    SolarisOne Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2016
    Location:
    the Irish region of ch'Rihan. RIP.
    I believe @shakham brings up a good point. I think the technology is going to prove untenable for another reason--perhaps the way conventional warp travel was shown to cause subspace instability back in TNG.
     
    RedAlert likes this.