Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x04 - "The Butcher's Knife Cares Not for the Lamb's Cry"

[Mr. Laser Beam]

They need to know that he is firm yet approachable and will brook no bullshit.

I'll give you the latter. However, Lorca is quite literally the least approachable (Starfleet) captain I have ever seen in Trek. Hell, I'd be more at ease talking to Edward Jellico.

 

[Feron]

I think a lot of the hard-line attitude we're seeing in Lorca is attributed largely to this all being a new ship with a new crew. Like any new CO in a real-world situation, he needs to establish discipline in the chain of command early and leave a lasting impression on the crew. They need to know that he is firm yet approachable and will brook no bullshit. Everything Lorca has done is what any good commanding officer would do.

He's also probably reacting with some irritation to Saru, who is a perpetual worry-wart, reacting very negatively to Stamets who is a scientist first and a Starfleet officer last and in no way hides his disgust for Starfleet appropriating and weaponizing his tech. His two top officers hold opinions that go directly against his grain. The only one he could (ostensibly) trust was the dangerously overzealous security chief (Landry, now stupidly and rightfully dead) and all he has left is the walking brain on legs, Burnham, who also happens to be Starfleet's first convicted mutineer.

Further, Lorca isn't liked by the Admiralty, based on scenes from the upcoming episode. He's trapped between the top and the bottom with people who don't like or trust him, yet are willing to set their principles aside to provide him with the means win the war at all costs, a task he probably sees as unattainable on most days. He's clearly not an idiot, and likely knows he's going to set up as a sacrificial lamb, regardless of the turnout.

If I were in his position and environment, working in it literally EVERY DAY, I'd probably have a hard time demonstrating much compassion for anyone or anything too. YMMV.

I think that your take on the character is excellent. Lorca feels very real to me, precisely because I've had more than one employer act in similar ways when they are under tremendous pressure to succeed.

For them, it was not wanting to ever have that "We're closing the place down." speech to employees while obviously for Lorca it is literally a matter of life and death.

I can understand people not liking him, it is often very unpleasant to work under someone like that. But at least in my personal experience, I would rather work for an abrasive boss who keeps the company afloat than to work for a sweet and gentle one who ultimately leads the company to financial ruin.

 

[BillJ]

But at least in my personal experience, I would rather work for an abrasive boss who keeps the company afloat than to work for a sweet and gentle one who ultimately leads the company to financial ruin.

Most good managers can keep a company afloat without being a dick. You usually get lesser work from people when you treat them badly.

 

[Feron]

Most good managers can keep a company afloat without being a dick. You usually get lesser work from people when you treat them badly.

That is sometimes the case, but OTOH when you have an employee literally refusing to do their job, such as Starmets was doing, it is often not possible to resolve the situation in a tranquil fashion, especially when there is a crisis concerning how quickly something is finished and a literal life / death outcome at stake.

 

[BillJ]

That is sometimes the case, but OTOH when you have an employee literally refusing to do their job, such as Starmets was doing, it is often not possible to resolve the situation in a tranquil fashion, especially when there is a crisis concerning how quickly something is finished and a literal life / death outcome at stake.

Lorca was being a dick because clearly he is a dick who is trying to impress people higher up the chain. I ran into his kind on more than one occasion working in corporate America.

Many end up flaming out because of a lack of people skills.

 

[Feron]

Lorca was being a dick because clearly he is a dick who is trying to impress people higher up the chain. I ran into his kind on more than one occasion working in corporate America.

Many end up flaming out because of a lack of people skills.

On that I will just have to agree to disagree.

In my real life job, I once had to translate for an "abrasive" type boss when he was giving a formal reprimand to an employee who did not speak English. When it was over and the employee had returned to his station, the boss that I'm sure said employee would have considered to be an inconsiderate dick literally broke down crying because he absolutely hated having to be abrasive.

But, as he told me at the time, his options at that point were to either aggressively demand improvement or to fire the employee. Major jobs were on the line and a failure to complete them would result in really bad things for the company.

In that case at least, the employee was "scared straight", eventually got promoted to management, and now considers that boss that he had thought of as a "dick" as one of the biggest helpers to him in the company.

 

[Vger23]

But his principles are self-defeating.

If enough members of the Federation adopted them, they would all wind up being served at the Klingon buffet.

He signed up to serve in what is at least a quasi-military organization. As far as I can tell, Starfleet is the only organization that the Federation has to rely on when it is under attack. If he is such a die-hard pacifist, he should have never signed up in the first place. He is akin to someone who joins the US military in order to get their college tuition paid and then freaks out when they discover that they just might have to fight.

I have zero respect for Starmets. He is only concerned for himself. Lorca is the one that I admire most so far. Of course, this is all subject to change since the characters themselves will likely change as the series progresses. But Lorca has clear and laudible goals and has tangible plans to achieve them. Lorca wants to save lives, and he does that. He wants to end the war quickly, he is obviously working hard to get that achieved. OTOH Starmets wants to work in a quasi-military organization, but feels offended when the military part of it comes to the forefront during wartime.

A diverse and thriving society needs both Lorcas and Stammets. They help balance things out.

 

[Feron]

A diverse and thriving society needs both Lorcas and Stammets. They help balance things out.

On that I agree.

Any society that begins to demand complete intellectual conformity is one destined to fall.

And as the series progresses, we may see that balance play out. I can see an argument for allowing the Space Bear to suffer temporary pain in order to save literally thousands of lives and protect the largest Dilithium source for the Federation.

But clearly if at some future date Lorca demanded a spore jump that would cause pain to another being simply to satisfy his personal curiosity or some other trivial reason then Starmets would be right to object to it.

 

[oberth]

On that I agree.

Any society that begins to demand complete intellectual conformity is one destined to fall.

And as the series progresses, we may see that balance play out. I can see an argument for allowing the Space Bear to suffer temporary pain in order to save literally thousands of lives and protect the largest Dilithium source for the Federation.

But clearly if at some future date Lorca demanded a spore jump that would cause pain to another being simply to satisfy his personal curiosity or some other trivial reason then Starmets would be right to object to it.

i don't think starments is the one to object to stuff like that - it'll be burnham - staments isn't the type of guy who's aneasy with a little torture as long as someone else does the dirty work (same with killing klingons)

... at least that's my impression so far

 

[oberth]

*uneasy

please tell me i can edit after two weeks on the forums

 

[OpenMaw]

Lorca was being a dick because clearly he is a dick who is trying to impress people higher up the chain. I ran into his kind on more than one occasion working in corporate America.

Many end up flaming out because of a lack of people skills.

One thing that people seem to be forgetting in this current line of conversation. This isn't corporate America. This is a war where the stakes clearly are life or death as established by the Klingons.

Lorca being a hardass is perfectly reasonable. Especially given the situation on Corvan. Lorca isn't "being a dick to be a dick" for any personal gain. He has established his motivation pretty clearly. Win the war, as fast and as decisively as possible.

What will be really interesting to see going forward are the ramifications for what happened at Corvan.

 

[Feron]

i don't think starments is the one to object to stuff like that - it'll be burnham - staments isn't the type of guy who's aneasy with a little torture as long as someone else does the dirty work (same with killing klingons)

... at least that's my impression so far

That indeed might be how It plays out eventually. Obviously, Burnham is the only person that so far has expressed any sympathy for the creature at all.

But we shall see. The writers might decide to let Starmets redeem himself at a later date, or of course they might just let him stay a whiny entitlement-mentality dick.

 

[oberth]

That indeed might be how It plays out eventually. Obviously, Burnham is the only person that so far has expressed any sympathy for the creature at all.

But we shall see. The writers might decide to let Starmets redeem himself at a later date, or of course they might just let him stay a whiny entitlement-mentality dick.

i would put money (if i were a betting man) on the fact that he also has no problem to torture ripper himself if it is for scientific reasons

 

[137th Gebirg]

Honestly I think Stamets is one step away from being a conscientious objector. Broadcasting the distress calls from the mine snapped him back into the reality of the situation and any other crew members who may have been having second thoughts were likely brought back into it as well. It really was a brilliant move on Lorca's part to demonstrate what's at stake.

 

[cultcross]

Honestly I think Stamets is one step away from being a conscientious objector

I think he represents the Nobel/Oppenheimer archetype. The scientist appalled at what the military do with his invention. I'm interested to see what his actions will be if/when Lorca takes things too far. Whether he goes along with it, objects in some way overtly, or throws his wooden shoes, called Sabots, into the machinery.

 

[Refuge]

A diverse and thriving society needs both Lorcas and Stammets. They help balance things out.

How do two arseholes provide a balance??

 

[shakham]

As I said in another thread
They're not doing episodic done in one TV. If made today, the Ultimate Computer would probably be an arc/thread that would be spread out over several episodes, if not an entire season. Daystrom would be a regular or semi-regular character/ We'd delve more into his background and character. We'd see more about how M-5 was developed.
Conversely if the "Ultimate Drive" was made in the 60's-90's: it would probably go like this
Teaser: Captain's Log Stardate 12345.6 The Enterprise has been diverted to Starbase 12 to pickup noted Federation scientist Paul Stamets, who claims to have a discovery that will revolutionize space travel. Starfleet has instructed us to give Stamets full access to our engineering systems and our complete cooperation.
In the transporter room KIrk, Spock and Scotty discuss Stamets. Scotty poo poos the idea and doesn't want Stamets anywhere near his engine room. Spock gives Stamets ideas support saying how everything is connected at the quantum level.
Stamets beams in with his assistant, Michaela Burnham. Kirk eyes go wide and he whispers "Michaela..." as the camera zooms in on her face in all of it's soft focused glory.
ACT ONE
Scotty is pissed, Stamets has taken over his engineering room and is keeping things secret. Michaela turns out to be an old classmate/lover of Kirk's, who left the Academy under a cloud. Kirk and Burnham reconnect and as his his wont, Kirk falls back in love with Burnham. So we see them walk the corridors of the ship, Kirk saying some lovey dovey Kirkian dialog. He broaches the subject of why she left the Academy, but she refuse to answer.

ACT TWO
They begin testing the drive with several short jumps. Scotty doesn't like it. Something feels wrong to him. Spock to begins to feel uneasy about it, too. He's getting psychic flashes of pain. Kirk is of course focused on Burnham. McCoy takes him aside and reminds him of his duty to the ship. Spock staggers into sickbay, screams and collapses.

ACT THREE:
Spock wakes up. McCoy does his crazy Vulcan physiology schitck. Spock responds with some Vulcan mumbo jumbo. Something is reaching out to him. Something on the ship. Down in engineering Stamets and Scotty are fighting. Scotty wants to know what Stamets is hiding. Burnham tries to intervene. Spock McCoy and Kirk arrive. Spock's psychic trail has lead them to engineering. Spock leds them to a closed room in engineering. Kirk tries to open the door but Stamets has a special security code on it. Kirk appeals to Burnham, and she open the door to reveal the tardigrade. Burnham explains the tardigrades connection to the jump drive. Everyone is shocked. Stamets goes mad activates the drive. The tardigrade screams in pain. From the bridge Sulu informs them they've jumped to middle of Klingon space!!!
ACT FOUR
Klingon ships surround the Enterprise. The tardiarade is upset. They need it calm so they can jump. The Klingons fire, the Enterprise is hit, Shields weakening, The Enterprise fire back. Scotty tries to figure out how to work the drive. Spcok communicate with the tardigrade. The creature has bonded with Burnham and with Spock help they calm it down. Just in time the jump drive works as a fleet of Klingon ships are about to destroy the Enterprise.
The drive only works with the tardigrade so it it scrapped on ethical grounds. Stamets faces charges. Burnham goes to help the tardigrades on their homeworld.

We never hear of Burnham, the jumpdrive or the Tardigrade again.

It's no more moronic than 90 % of what we've seen in Star Trek over the last five decades.

So why wouldn't another race scrap the ethics and continue using the tech? Why wouldn't somebody in the future figured out how to use it?

It's a major motivator to be able to go anywhere instantly. Usually that power is reserved for god creatures and even then, most don't have it. That's how we keep the trek universe sane, the "beyond our understanding" card.

You can't play that card with the spores.

That being said you may be able to make the same argument with the genesis I guess, but the spores are much bigger in scope.

 

[Borgminister]

How do two arseholes provide a balance??

One is a civilian scientist, the other a military strategist. You know, like McCoy the crusty doctor and Spock the superior Vulcan.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So why wouldn't another race scrap the ethics and continue using the tech? Why wouldn't somebody in the future figured out how to use it?

It's a major motivator to be able to go anywhere instantly. Usually that power is reserved for god creatures and even then, most don't have it. That's how we keep the trek universe sane, the "beyond our understanding" card.

You can't play that card with the spores.

That being said you may be able to make the same argument with the genesis I guess, but the spores are much bigger in scope.

Because it's fiction. The writers decide who gets the Spore Drives, the Genesis Devices, the Guardians of Forever and the Slingshot Effects or why they don't work.

 

[SolarisOne]

I believe @shakham brings up a good point. I think the technology is going to prove untenable for another reason--perhaps the way conventional warp travel was shown to cause subspace instability back in TNG.