Is this show actually "character driven" at all?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by eschaton, Oct 12, 2017.

  1. Gepard

    Gepard Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Or maybe just craft a version of the story where she has at least one friend she can confide in. You know, like Tilly. Who keeps trying to befriend her.
     
  2. Kemaiku

    Kemaiku Admiral Admiral

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    But then you get no mystical mumbojumbo, no dull plodding dialogue, CGI to distract from it and have to talk to actual human beings normally.

    Who wants that?
     
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  3. eschaton

    eschaton Captain Red Shirt

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    Given we know canonically that Vulcan raw emotion is stronger than humans, one would think the Vulcan methods of suppressing emotions would be more, rather than less, successful in humans. Of course, maybe it's just that Vulcans feel more anger than humans, while humans feel more sadness and other negative emotions.

    Man, I'm not a fan of this element of the show, but you're making it sound as bad as the Star Wars prequels!
     
  4. Kemaiku

    Kemaiku Admiral Admiral

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    Don't be silly, they opened with sand, that should make sure Anakin never appears.
     
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  5. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    It clearly means that, once ST-Disc is finished, we can look forward to a seven-year pre-prequel series about the adventures of Georgiou, Burnham, and the USS Shenzhou! :eek:

    Kor
     
  6. eschaton

    eschaton Captain Red Shirt

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    While that would be nice, I'm guessing they couldn't get an actress like Michelle Yeoh to commit to a TV schedule for a seven-year contract.
     
  7. Jadeb

    Jadeb Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I'm worried that's also true for Jason Isaacs.
     
  8. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Commodore Commodore

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    Just as there are rebel Vulcans who choose not to follow the Surakian beliefs there are probably human Vulcanophiles trying to repress their emotions, getting their ears pointed, and applying for residency permits to Shi-kahr lol
     
  9. skip bittman

    skip bittman Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Why, did anyone NOT think Lorca was going to die in the finale so Burnham becomes captain with a new hairdo to match? They aren't going to drag it across several seasons and he has many other fish to fry at this point in his career. No way would his agent let him sign a huge contract even if he wanted to.
     
  10. GeekUSACarl

    GeekUSACarl The Last Starfighter Premium Member

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    I'm still having to suspend disbelief they'd let a mutineer serve with a rank if it were to happen, let alone command a ship.
     
  11. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    He will make her conviction magically gone and forgotten through his contacts at Sect-- I mean, Starfleet Intelligence. Or something.

    Kor
     
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  12. cultcross

    cultcross Polite scientist Moderator

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    Part of the core premise of the show was that we aren't following the Captain. I'd be shocked if they give that up 15 episodes in. It may not be Lorca in season 2, of course, but I'd be quite surprised if it's Burnham.
     
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  13. gblews

    gblews Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think that it takes a concerted effort to not see the obvious character development for Burnham even after just 4 episodes. She committed mutiny in order to save her captain and her ship. She then was unable to secure the taking of a valuable prisoner which resulted in the death of her captain. And as 1st officer, protecting her captain was Burnham's primary responsibility. Following all this, she is stripped of rank and tried and convicted of formulating a mutiny and sentenced to life in prison.

    While in route to the Dis, when the shuttle gets into trouble and the other prisoners are frantically trying to save themselves, Burnham just sits there, obviously greeting death with indifference. When Burnham comes aboard the Dis, she is showing the effects of all that has occurred in the last several months. This is a far cry from the confident, brave, character we met on the desert planet with Georgiou.

    If you have watched every episode I can't believe you missed all this. Your o/p in this thread is an indication that perhaps you may not have grasped what you saw for what it was. I'm not sure of the answer here.
    Guilt, which is causing her to doubt herself. This is the reason she initially didn't think she deserved to stay aboard the Dis. Curiosity, which is what caused her to break into engineering to discover the spores. Lorca was monitoring all this and it helped to further convince Lorca that Burnham was right for Dis. Burnham's subsequent decision to stay aboard was, as others have mentioned, due to her desire for atonement. Her decision to stay, led directly to the saving of the miners at Corvan2 as she was the one who discovered how to get the spore drive going. BTW, this also means that Burnham is a hero.
    Sometimes staring into the distance is the most appropriate and effective way of "showing" us what the character is feeling. I'm referring to Burnham's best character moment of the series so far (even better than her scene on the shuttle), her listening to Captain Georgiou's will and then, most importantly, opening the container to find the Phillipa's beloved family telescope. No words were required and thankfully, the writers knew this. What we may learn that this scene represents a re-dedication of sorts, on Burnham's part. But we'll have to wait and see about this.

    You know, it occurs to me that your posts indicate you might not quite understand character development or, 'show don't tell', as well as you think you do. I could be wrong, of course.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
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  14. eschaton

    eschaton Captain Red Shirt

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    You're talking about something else entirely from what I was discussing. I admitted in the OP I thought the writers had made a solid attempt to develop Michael Burnham. I recognize that the overall plot arc shows character change. And unlike some people, I'm not going to argue that she's naturally unlikable. I think the problem with her character is that her decisions (and growth/regression) serve the plot desires of the writers for the season rather than flow naturally (the show is plot focused rather than character focused). I also think other than the moment involving Alice in Wonderland in the third episode (which was arguably just put there for the Amanda Grayson reference) she hasn't been given any solid character moments - which again I define as allowing for interactions which deepen the character in ways totally unrelated to the plot. Real human beings have all kinds of conversations after all, some of them trivial. Often it's not so much what we talk about that's important, it's how we talk about it, as it reveals what kind of person we are.

    I dunno, as I said, I found that scene mostly useless, because it mainly reinforced things we already knew - that Georgiou had great respect/great hopes for her before the mutiny, and that she felt tremendous guilt for having let her down. The key character moment was getting up the nerve to open the box, not what happened afterward, because it showed she moved past her guilt a bit.
     
  15. Refuge

    Refuge Rear Admiral Commodore

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    Hadn't thought about that, but you're right. She did some Vulcan martial art moves in the mess hall and tilts her head. However she's all over the place emotionally and intellectually.
     
  16. mickmike

    mickmike Captain Captain

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    Burnham was also very vulcan when she first came aboard the Discovery as shown in the flashback in episode 2.

    I think growing up on Vulcan screwed Burnham up. She obviously had emotional issues and the Vulcan response is to repress emotions. That's all well and good for a species that has repressed emotions for thousands of years, but not so much for humans
     
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  17. Refuge

    Refuge Rear Admiral Commodore

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    I think Phillipa must have watered down the Vulcan (conditioning) in her. Paid off years later when Michael didn't know how to give her a decent neck pinch!
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  18. ohdeve

    ohdeve Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    After seven years of stellar (no pun intended) service on the Shenzou, where losing your shit would probably tarnish your record some, Burnham loses her shit because of Klingons.

    Burnham mutinies, presumably due to her shit loss. Georgiou wakes up and is all wtf. The Klingons start kicking ass. Since there was not actually a mutiny--just an attempted mutiny, really--you'd think Burnham's mentor of seven years might let bygones be bygones. Not so. Anyway, Burham kills Tamagotchi and the captain gets to be a Happy Meal. Killing the Klingon leader is apparently the cause of the war as opposed, say, to the actual Klingon attack.

    Burnham feels bad that her captain died, and probably feels bad for mutinying even though she was totally right. A true Vulcan wouldn't have conceded that point, at least. But take a step back. A seven year veteran of a starship goes off the deep end because Klingons blew up her parents or something, and seeing them causes some kind of psychotic episode. This isn't character development. Better Call Saul has been on for three seasons and has yet to reveal how Jimmy McGill becomes Saul Goodman. Shit is building up slowly, but effectively. On Discovery, Klingons have the ability to trigger a very specific form of PTSD that causes otherwise rational people to lose all sense of duty and decorum, all within the first half hour of the show. Keep in mind that it's been established Burnham is all Vulcan-esque and one generally cool, collected motherfucker. Klingon crazies + Ice Cold Vulcan does not = a realistic character. She would have made a great Bajoran, though.

    Blah blah blah, she ends up helping Lorca because she doesn't really have a choice. Doesn't seem too enthused about it. Spends the next two episodes looking like she's not too engaged in things. Is she a stoic Vulcan wannabe? Is she a sulking failed mutineer? Is she a manipulative bitch? (Yes.) Her actions are dictated solely by plot, and do not seem to have any internal motivation.

    Just my opinion, of course, but character development for Burnham? Not so far.
     
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  19. ralfy

    ralfy Commander Red Shirt

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    The two are connected. That is, characters' motives may influence plot, and the outcome may develop character further.
     
  20. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Burnham's had more character development in 4 episodes than the Enterprise cast had in 4 years.