How to resolve 6 Voyager Inconsistencies in 85 seconds

[Anwar]

Every journey has a homeward leg.

Sure, after they've done a proper mission that got them out there to start with. VOY's problem was that they never had anything beyond a nebulous "Get home" thing that could never be accomplished before the end.

Nor should they have. But on Voyager, everyone was besties from Day 1.

I agree, it should've last 1 or so seasons and then be done with. VOY wrapped that up too fast.

Question: "You have a character who's a newly commissioned ensign, fresh out of the academy. What rank should he be by the end if the series?"
DS9 Writer: "I'd probably have him get promoted to LTJG after a couple of years, maybe quietly advance him to full lieutenant around about Season 6."
VOY Writer: "Uh... ensign?"

It's more fair to say "Oh, is the Ensign played by that jackass actor who keeps screwing up his lines and barely puts any effort in but we can't get rid of him? Keep him an Ensign forever, that's his punishment for being a jackass."

[/quote]They did a great job building up a satisfying future for most of the characters... them deleted that future and replaced it with a whole lotta nothing.[/quote]

It was a random contrivance that sent them out there to start with, so it fits it was a random thing that got them home.

It can be argued that they did, by making the replicators work, the torpedoes infinite, and Voyager able to build better shuttles than an orbital shipyard.

Is that really any worse than how the SGU ship had unlimited self-maintenance, or Moya never needing structural work, or the Lexx being able to survive by eating dirt and rocks?

 

[Farscape One]

Is that really any worse than how the SGU ship had unlimited self-maintenance, or Moya never needing structural work, or the Lexx being able to survive by eating dirt and rocks?

Yes, because there were at least throwaway lines (Lexx could eat anything but got more fuel out of eating organic matter, mentioned and seen multiple times), episode plots (Destiny needing to get close to a star to get the power needed to upkeep the ship or Moya seeing the Diagnostician in "Die Me, Dichotomy"), or background pieces (the mindless robot 'people' on board Lexx or DRDs on Moya) in SGU, FARSCAPE, and LEXX that were used to explain such things.

 

[Oddish]

It's more fair to say "Oh, is the Ensign played by that jackass actor who keeps screwing up his lines and barely puts any effort in but we can't get rid of him? Keep him an Ensign forever, that's his punishment for being a jackass."

The problem is, when the viewers started complaining about it when Tom was reinstated in S6... we got "Nightingale", in which the writers rubbed our nose in Harry's continued ensignhood. It was basically "we're gonna do this and you can't stop us, so ha ha ha." Competent showrunners don't deliberately antagonize their audience.

In any case, it's become a self-sustaining phenomenon at this point. I am inclined to believe that the real reason why Harry wasn't in Picard S3 is because there are two equally vocal groups: one is pissed off that Harry was never promoted, and the other takes a perverse delight in it. They didn't want to show Harry with a successful career behind him because they didn't want to upset either group.

Is that really any worse than how the SGU ship had unlimited self-maintenance, or Moya never needing structural work, or the Lexx being able to survive by eating dirt and rocks?

What Farscape said, plus these were presumably abilities that these vessels had built in. Voyager went several years with limited replicator energy and 38 torpedoes. Then, with no explanation: replicator energy became infinite, Voyager was able to throw torpedoes willy-nilly, and they gained the ability to build extra large shuttles that could fly at warp 7.

If Voyager had always had infinite sustainability, it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[XweAponX]

Ok, “unlimited shuttles”, that was dealt with in Extreme Risk- I simply think they would build as many shuttles as they needed. Even the Flyer was Waporized a couple of times, but they rebuilt it “time and again”… (I don’t know if I did this right)

oh, unlimited replicator energy… during the first two seasons, they had trouble stocking up on everything they needed to keep going. After the third season or so, they got better at replenishing. I think the worst was during the year of hell and voyager was actually destroyed during that time, but in true Brannon Braga fashion, he made it never happened.

even in Lexx, after the president and Prince shoot all of those blue guys… well, that was pretty much the end of the Lexx after that. There was no way to feed the Lexx, so the only thing they could do was make a new Mini-Lexx. But no Kai… Voyager never got to that point, not really. There was that one time on the Demon planet. But they got enough “silver blood” to keep going. But SilverVoyager forgot about needing that stuff in “course oblivion…”

 

[at Quark's]

actually visibly regretted splitting Tuvix

Not certain she'd have regretted it. There simply was no right decision and Tuvix was intentionally written that way. She had to choose (not taking action would also have been a choice).

But I could have accepted her written as being torn over her own decision for a long, long time. in DS9 fashion.

 

[Oddish]

Ok, “unlimited shuttles”, that was dealt with in Extreme Risk- I simply think they would build as many shuttles as they needed. Even the Flyer was Waporized a couple of times, but they rebuilt it “time and again"

My point! In "The Cloud", they can't handle replicating eight ounces of java. Four years later, they're churning out 21-meter warp-capable shuttlecraft weighing hundreds, maybe thousands of tons. Am I the only one who sees the in inconsistency here?

But I could have accepted her written as being torn over her own decision for a long, long time. in DS9 fashion.

That's what I meant. In the unfortunately non-canon "Autobiography of Kathryn Janeway", it's revealed that Kathryn did feel this decision for many years (it also declares that courtesy of her last act as captain, Harry left Voyager a lieutenant, which I thought was a nice cheap shot at Voyager's powers that be).

 

[XweAponX]

My point! In "The Cloud", they can't handle replicating eight ounces of java. Four years later, they're churning out 21-meter warp-capable shuttlecraft weighing hundreds, maybe thousands of tons. Am I the only one who sees the in inconsistency here?

you must be talking about nightingale when they were showing the engine nacelles being rebuilt…

I would not really call that an inconsistency, toward the beginning, when they were new to the Delta quadrant, they had a lot of trouble keeping things like deuterium, dilithium, and other needed substances in stock.

But during the next few years, they discovered ways of making their supply last longer, new technologies that increased replication. In “the void“, they discover a way of drastically increasing their replicator rations by a factor of 500 to 1…

So when I got to see them reassembling the Nacelles, well, they were only partially using replicator technology. They were also using material that they were finding on planet.

Not everything came out of a replicator. There were many missions where they were looking for some kind of material or other, sometimes they were successful, other times, it was a trick like with the Gallacite.

 

[Lynx]

"Gilligan's Island in Space" is a good premise for 7 years? Sorry, but after 1-2 seasons you need to reinvent yourself past that.

Having a lost ship in space is a great opportunity to come up with new ideas and character development.
Voyager had a great premise and great characters. Unfortunately the writers and producers didn't have the capacity to use that.

They could have developed the main characters they had. They could also have done something with the recurring characters, like Carey, Dalby, Chell, Gerron, Henley, Ayala and others as well. Just like DS9 did with Garak, Rom, Nog, Dukat and many others. Instead they wasted most of the main characters and focused only on Seven, janeway and The Doctor.

There was also the possibility to come up with new worlds, new interesting species and all that instead of getting stuck with The Borg.

And by having more to work with, while VOY was deeply restrained.

As I wrote above, it wouldn't have to be that restrained, there were lots of opportunities. Instead they got stuck with only three characters and The Borg.

So just like NuBSG, Stargate Atlantis, Stargate Universe, the Walking Dead all fell apart just as fast if not faster?

Stargate Atlantis was a great series. It was stupid to abandon it for a movie which never happened.

Stargate Universe was a total failure. Good premise but hopeless characters. One of the worst series I've ever watched. I quit watching it after five episodes but started watching it again after a friend of mine told me that he had fallen asleep on tw occasions while watching it. It became a joke between us after that, the only reason to watch it.

The same with NuBSG. Dystopian premise and boring characters.

I don't care about that Zombie stuff. Too much doom-and-gloom for me.

 

[XweAponX]

The same with NuBSG. Dystopian premise and boring characters.

there were some good storylines though. What killed it for me was that Eddie told them that if they were ever to include aliens in the storyline that he would quit, he asked them to kill off his character. I liked the aliens from the original BSG.

but you are correct, I don’t like dystopian universes that contain only humans. That’s what I didn’t like about SGU. Everywhere they went there was some damn robot that they couldn’t fight and they had to figure out how to get around them. Actually, the original SG one show had a lot of that, whenever they beat the bad guys, new, even worse bad guys would show up.

they kind of did this with the third season of Picard, where they made an old bad guy into an even worse bad guy. I was hoping that they would bring in more elements from deep space nine I thought for sure that the face that came out of Amanda Plummers hand was Gul Dukat…

 

[Anwar]

Having a lost ship in space is a great opportunity to come up with new ideas and character development.

Sure, if you drop the whole "They're looking for a way home" thing which we all knew couldn't be accomplished.

They could have developed the main characters they had. They could also have done something with the recurring characters, like Carey, Dalby, Chell, Gerron, Henley, Ayala and others as well. Just like DS9 did with Garak, Rom, Nog, Dukat and many others. Instead they wasted most of the main characters and focused only on Seven, janeway and The Doctor.

The main cast should have just been Janeway, Chakotay, Tuvok, the Doctor and Paris. Neelix, Kes, Kim and Torres should have been recurring secondaries not in every episode. A smaller main cast is easier to handle.

There was also the possibility to come up with new worlds, new interesting species and all that instead of getting stuck with The Borg.

Everytime they tried something new, the audience complained. Have to "give them what they want" after all.

Stargate Universe was a total failure. Good premise but hopeless characters. One of the worst series I've ever watched. I quit watching it after five episodes but started watching it again after a friend of mine told me that he had fallen asleep on tw occasions while watching it. It became a joke between us after that, the only reason to watch it.

The same with NuBSG. Dystopian premise and boring characters.

I don't care about that Zombie stuff. Too much doom-and-gloom for me.

Really, the premises of those shows (and VOY) just doesn't hold up.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The thing with the torpedoes is easy. Building the torpedo ITSELF is no problem; it's the antimatter that's irreplaceable. But they can always trade with friendly alien species for spare reserves of antimatter.

 

[Oddish]

As I mentioned early on, there's gobs of ways they could have technobabbled out a solution... they just didn't.

With the exception of Harry Kim's rank, which was a calculated attack, most of the problems originally pointed out were the result of simple sloppiness by the writers, showrunners, or whoever was responsible for continuity.

 

[at Quark's]

There was also the possibility to come up with new worlds, new interesting species and all that instead of getting stuck with The Borg.

They tried that in the first three years of the show, and apparently those in power weren't satisfied with the result.

Personally I regret the day Voyager went for the 'easy route', the formulaic approach (Borg, Borg Babe, and explosions), as for me that felt they abandoned their efforts to make something original and fresh. Uneven as the first three seasons sometimes could be, at least they tried during those years.

 

[Oddish]

They tried that in the first three years of the show, and apparently those in power weren't satisfied with the result.

Personally I regret the day Voyager went for the 'easy route', the formulaic approach (Borg, Borg Babe, and explosions), as for me that felt they abandoned their efforts to make something original and fresh. Uneven as the first three seasons sometimes could be, at least they tried during those years.

Mistakes were made throughout... I think just about every character had significant ones.
Janeway: If I had to pick just one, Tuvix. Meant to be a "the burdens of command" moment, but many fans see it as an act of coldblooded murder.
Chakotay: Basing his character on the advice of a charlatan.
Torres: Making her chief engineer right away. Carey got slighted, but he was a glorified extra anyway. By having half her potential character growth all take place in one episode, B'Elanna got screwed.
Paris: Having his rebellious sequence in S2 be a fake. It would have been much more interesting if it was real.
Kim: Not making him an alien. Failing to promote him was a calculated insult, but note that it's the only thing people seem to mention about him because nothing else was provided. The "Favorite Son" plot was meant to actually take him somewhere, like Nog joining Starfleet.
Seven and Neelix: Their respective outfits, i.e. "Hello, look at my boobs" and "Hi, I'm a sofa" respectively. Seven was able to rise above her less than ideal costuming... Neelix was not.
Kes: Eliminating her. She had potential as a character.
The EMH: Not giving him a name. It wasn't half as funny as they apparently thought it was.
Tuvok: Uhhh... Ok, fine, they got him right.

 

[at Quark's]

Tuvix To me the entire point of the episode was that there was no unambiguous moral solution out of the conundrum for Janeway. So I can't really say bringing back Tuvok and Neelix was the wrong decision to make (nor can I say it was the right one).

Chaktotay Did they know at the time that advisor was a charlatan? If not, I can't call that an outright error.

Torres In-universe, the reality was that, being under very frequent Kazon attacks, they needed to fill that chief engineer spot, and soon. So in order to have Torres struggle her way up, that would have meant Carey becoming chief engineer and Torres working under him, perhaps with frequent tension between her and Carey, then Carey dying somewhere half point in the series, and Torres replacing him. I'm not saying it couldn't have been done, but it would have required more careful scripting (and probable also seeing Carey a lot more, since the chief engineer seems to be a natural key person to focus on. For example, how would he not be present during those senior officer meetings instead of Torres?). Not saying it couldn't have been done, but it would have been more difficult.

As for Neelix: I think he was the victim of lazy writing. He could have been much more had he been provided more and better stories. In those rare stories where he actually gets to do more than comedic relief (Jetrel, Fair Trade for example) we see how great the character could have been. 7 was the focus of many mediocre scripts which she elevated by her performance despite her silly costume, but 'many' is an operative word there - Neelix only got few of those opportunities.

And Tuvok: while I agree major errors were avoided with him, I also thought he was mostly a relatively boring character (as any 'regular vulcan' would be. Even T'Pol only became more interesting to me in the later seasons, when she began to wrestle more with certain experiences and aspects of her personality.

And finally, I think it's hard to find a (Trek) series where errors such as you mention weren't made.

 

[ReddishAlert]

Voyager just wastes the premise of their characters. They set up this whole premise about the Marquis, Tom’s rehabilitation, Harry’s youth, Neelix and Kes as residents with a different outlook, the original command crew dead, Tuvok and Chakotay’s conflict etc.

Then in 3 episodes that’s done and they are the perfect Starfleet crew. So then the story has nowhere to go but to the “we want to get home” route which should have been a series of mini arcs moving closer not a bunch of pointless travel and then one giant jump in the last episode.

I disagree the premise is flawed. Seska is one of the most interesting parts of the first couple stories and also one of the few characters based on the premise.

Voyager just needed to be more dynamic and not static. If say in Prime Factors, Tuvok’s decision resulted in Janeway making Chakotay XO that would be interesting. If Harry had been promoted to Lt. in Resolutions and challenged Tuvok that would be interesting. If Janeway was reacting to the crew based on their actions instead of being proud and disappointed and then randomly demoting Tom that would be interesting.

It isn’t a coincidence that the characters allowed to change Seven and the Doctor of the main cast and Seska and Suter are also the ones most praised.

I like Voyager a lot but I can’t think of anything any of the characters do or things they encounter past the first few seasons which couldn’t happen to another starfleet crew right in the alpha quadrant.

 

[Oddish]

Tuvix To me the entire point of the episode was that there was no unambiguous moral solution out of the conundrum for Janeway. So I can't really say bringing back Tuvok and Neelix was the wrong decision to make (nor can I say it was the right one).

Certainly, there was no right decision. But this one just seems to have generated stronger feelings of anger from the Trek community than corresponding decisions by other captains. Archer's decision to favor the Stink... I mean Menk over the Valakians is similar in that regard.

Chaktotay Did they know at the time that advisor was a charlatan? If not, I can't call that an outright error.

A little research into the guy's credentials might have helped.

Torres In-universe, the reality was that, being under very frequent Kazon attacks, they needed to fill that chief engineer spot, and soon. So in order to have Torres struggle her way up, that would have meant Carey becoming chief engineer and Torres working under him, perhaps with frequent tension between her and Carey, then Carey dying somewhere half point in the series, and Torres replacing him. I'm not saying it couldn't have been done, but it would have required more careful scripting (and probable also seeing Carey a lot more, since the chief engineer seems to be a natural key person to focus on. For example, how would he not be present during those senior officer meetings instead of Torres?). Not saying it couldn't have been done, but it would have been more difficult.

I'm aware of the difficulty. But two counterpoints... one, B'Elanna got ejected from the academy because if her Klingon temper. So we're supposed to believe that a year of intensive training couldn't make her a good officer... but a few chummy moments with Janeway did?

Also, as I said, B'Elanna's story arc was basically going from (A) "violent and angry half-Klingon who can't control her rage" through (B) "angsty half-Klingon who's trying to reconcile her dual nature" to (C) "wife and mother who's made peace with herself". By taking her from A to B in one episode, they forced her to spend the next seven years running in place at B.

As for Carey, I would have disposed of him at the "37's" planet with the Maquis who were the biggest problems, as a completely unexpected departure. By then, maybe a year on Voyager has smoothed enough of B'Elanna's rough edges that she can take over as chief.

As for Neelix: I think he was the victim of lazy writing.

You hit the nail on the head.

And Tuvok: while I agree major errors were avoided with him, I also thought he was mostly a relatively boring character (as any 'regular vulcan' would be.

Tuvok, as a 100+ year-old Vulcan with an established personality and significant mental discipline, worked well as a static character. Harry did not. Problem is... they were both static characters.

And finally, I think it's hard to find a (Trek) series where errors such as you mention weren't made

True. But it's harder to find a series where there were so many inconsistencies that could have been resolved with mere seconds of dialogue.

Then in 3 episodes that’s done and they are the perfect Starfleet crew.

Yeah. After Picard and Sisko both have serious difficulties with one Maquis, Janeway has 30 of them eating out of her hand overnight.

I disagree the premise is flawed. Seska is one of the most interesting parts of the first couple stories and also one of the few characters based on the premise.

Hence her elimination. Can you imagine her as a recurring villain? Or even a reluctant part of Voyager's crew?

I like Voyager a lot but I can’t think of anything any of the characters do or things they encounter past the first few seasons which couldn’t happen to another starfleet crew right in the alpha quadrant.

Like is often said, the series turned into TNG Lite. That might have made it safer and more profitable... but its potential as a a great series in it's own right was decidedly stunted.

 

[at Quark's]

A little research into the guy's credentials might have helped.

If it was that easilly discoverable, I agree with you.

Also, as I said, B'Elanna's story arc was basically going from (A) "violent and angry half-Klingon who can't control her rage" through (B) "angsty half-Klingon who's trying to reconcile her dual nature" to (C) "wife and mother who's made peace with herself". By taking her from A to B in one episode, they forced her to spend the next seven years running in place at B.

In my view part of the larger problem, how easily most of the Maquis crew was turned around to Serve Janeway, even if they weren't a model crew right away.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

In my view part of the larger problem, how easily most of the Maquis crew was turned around to Serve Janeway, even if they weren't a model crew right away.

The Maquis crew came around because Chakotay did. They were loyal to him, so if he assimilated, so did they. Easy peasy.

 

[at Quark's]

The Maquis crew came around because Chakotay did. They were loyal to him, so if he assimilated, so did they. Easy peasy.

Many of the Maquis would have been disgruntled Starfleet officers - I wouldn't expect them to turn around so easily simply because they were loyal to Chakotay- even though I can buy the loyalty factor to a certain extent. I'm also tempted to think that they simply didn't have another option if they wanted a shot at ever seeing home again as their own ship was destroyed- and even with Voyager that chance was slim. But in that case I would expect them to agree far more grudgingly than they seemed to do. After all some of them could have argued there had been no need for them to sacrifice their ship to help Voyager in the first place, the ship which came after them essentially to investigate their whereabouts and if necessary, to capture them.