News Female Same-Sex Couple For Discovery?

[Nyotarules]

But if something like a genderchanging alien being regarded as totally normal by humans can set an example for those that will shape our future? I think that's atleast something.

And I respect your opinion, I do. But I also understand that you don't speak for all transgender people. So you stating that it is a bad idea is an opinion, not a fact. For all you know, there are transgender people out there who feel connected to a character like that. Because it's an individual's choice.

Would you find the idea of a racechanging alien (from brown to pink) acceptable to teach humans to accept real life humans with various shades of brown skin? Gendar is in the mind, sex is between the legs, melanin content is all over the body.
Hiring a transwoman to play a transwoman is not impossible, its no more impossible than hiring George Takei and Nichelle Nichols in 1967.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

I used Geordi as an example of a character having an issue that they live with, yet aren’t defined by it. He’s never treated as broken or defective and needing to be “cured”. Apparently went over the heads of certain posters. There’s really not any valid comparison on Trek.

Fair enough, apologies for trying to express opinions without going back and reading the whole discussion.

But yeah, trans people don’t need to be cured. The biggest problem trans people have is cis people who mistakenly think they know better than us and want us to go away as if we’re the problem. We’re not, they are.

If there's one thing I've learnt as a white, cis, hetero, able bodied, etc, it's that I don't think we'll ever be able to fully comprehend the extent of our privilege, and how blind it can make us. There are those of us who try though.

 

[Fateor]

Did you have a point other than being hateful?

If you think that's "being hateful" I think you're at the point where you need to emotionally distance yourself from the issue being discussed.

As you are so insistent on pointing out, representation matters, but unless you want that to be token representation that is just the character equivalent of holding up a sign saying "we're inclusive" which most people watching have trained themselves to ignore. That character has to have a history and storyline that's empty of obvious plot holes and worked into the setting in a way that it's organic to said setting.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

That character has to have a history and storyline that's empty of obvious plot holes and worked into the setting in a way that it's organic to said setting.

You mean like, "there's a trans person serving in Starfleet, because trans people exist in the 22nd Century"?

That's organic enough for me...

 

[Tuskin38]

If you think that's "being hateful" I think you're at the point where you need to emotionally distance yourself from the issue being discussed.

As you are so insistent on pointing out, representation matters, but unless you want that to be token representation that is just the character equivalent of holding up a sign saying "we're inclusive" which most people watching have trained themselves to ignore. That character has to have a history and storyline that's empty of obvious plot holes and worked into the setting in a way that it's organic to said setting.

Tans people exist. That's organic.

Not every person needs a backstory.

 

[Awesome Possum]

If you think that's "being hateful" I think you're at the point where you need to emotionally distance yourself from the issue being discussed.

As you are so insistent on pointing out, representation matters, but unless you want that to be token representation that is just the character equivalent of holding up a sign saying "we're inclusive" which most people watching have trained themselves to ignore. That character has to have a history and storyline that's empty of obvious plot holes and worked into the setting in a way that it's organic to said setting.

If you had actually read my posts instead of cherry picking what you thought you could tear apart you would have seen that I’m arguing for a character with a history, is part of the crew and just happens to be trans. Like how every single character so far, just happens to be cisgender. What’s the story reason for everyone being cis. It’s not the default for humanity, it’s just more common. It’s really weird that there are so many cis people and no trans people. It breaks the reality of the show. I like how the Jetsons is weird for only having white people. It’s just not natural. But I’ve actively argued against a token character who is just there is transition because that’s all some people know about trans people. But I guess you didn’t, probably too many words.

I’m not sure why you dismiss me being emotional. All healthy humans are emotional about everything. That’s what feelings are, it’s why we like certain foods or songs. I know you were just trying to dismiss my whole arguement because you think that’s how you win. But you’re as wrong about that as everything else. Are you not emotional? Maybe you should seek help for that, it’s not healthy.

 

[Fateor]

You mean like, "there's a trans person serving in Starfleet, because trans people exist in the 22nd Century"?

That's organic enough for me...

By the Federations 22nd Century those "trans people" are just going to be men and woman who, for all intents and purposes, are functionally and possibly even genetically indistinguishable from the sex they choose to live as.

 

[Longinus]

It is not that there cannot be an allegorical scifi stories about the issues relating to this topic, but the representation must happen first. As Possum already said, we had Sulu and Uhura to show the Federation's stance on race before 'Let that be your last battlfied', so that worked. But as good episode as 'the Outcast' was, the allegory felt hollow due the complete lack of any Federation LGBT characters or even mention of such people.

 

[Jinn]

By the Federations 22nd Century those "trans people" are just going to be men and woman who, for all intents and purposes, are functionally and possibly even genetically indistinguishable from the sex they choose to live as.

So, basically pretty much the way it currently is, but with extra quotation marks and maybe or maybe not genetic change?

Thinking about it, probably no genetic change, considering the Federation's stance on that, so just extra quotation marks.

 

[Awesome Possum]

By the Federations 22nd Century those "trans people" are just going to be men and woman who, for all intents and purposes, are functionally and possibly even genetically indistinguishable from the sex they choose to live as.

Sounds like a bullshit excuse to erase trans people. Star Trek is better than that.

But given that trans women look like most cis women and trans men look like most cis men, I’m not sure why you have a problem. Unless you’re so unaware of actual trans people that you’re pushing the old man in a dress cliche. Something that only happens because cis men keep getting hired to play trans women. Which is wrong and leads to bizarre and horribly incorrect views on them.

 

[MadeIndescribable]

By the Federations 22nd Century those "trans people" are just going to be men and woman who, for all intents and purposes, are functionally and possibly even genetically indistinguishable from the sex they choose to live as.

Ok, firstly, as was mentioned before, saying trans people in " " is offensive.
Secondly, regardless of genetics, Star Trek is still a 21st Century TV show, and so whatever reasons for in-universe logic there are, they aren't going to always take priority over the production of modern media. As has been said many times, representation matters.

 

[Awesome Possum]

So, basically pretty much the way it currently is, but with extra quotation marks and maybe or maybe not genetic change?

Yes, it’s called erasure. Like how some used to argue that they should never mention if a character is gay or not. Because anyone could be gay, they just don’t mention it on Star Trek. Although no one complained about all the straight characters having relationships or mentioning relationships. That’s fine, but you can’t do it with gay people.

Thankfully that bullshit is over.

 

[Jinn]

Although no one complained about all the straight characters having relationships or mentioning relationships.

Reminds me of how a lot of people were complaining about how Bill's sexuality was "always mentioned" in series 10 of Doctor Who and later someone checked how often each of the NuWho companions were depicted in any form of sexual way, like flirting or whatever and Bill was pretty much average. A lot of people just noticed because she wasn't straight.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Ok, firstly, as was mentioned before, saying trans people in " " is offensive.
Secondly, regardless of genetics, Star Trek is still a 21st Century TV show, and so whatever reasons for in-universe logic there are, they aren't going to always take priority over the production of modern media. As has been said many times, representation matters.

It’s just an attempt to justify bigotry by claiming it’s being true to the show. It has nothing to do with logic, real or in-universe. It’s grasping for straws.

He’s even gotten himself in trouble for it before and got another thread closed. I guess he thinks he can do it again. If you can’t win a debate, try to shut it down. Hopefully it won’t happen again, everyone else has been pretty respectful so far.

Reminds me of how a lot of people were complaining about how Bill's sexuality was "always mentioned" in series 10 of Doctor Who and later someone checked how often each of the NuWho companions were depicted in any form of sexual way, like flirting or whatever and Bill was pretty much average. A lot of people just noticed because she wasn't straight.

It’s funny how LGBTQ characters are generally described as token, forced, or being shoved down the audience’s thoat, but cishet people aren’t. It’s just because the person saying it doesn’t want LGBTQ people to be seen for whatever stupid reason. I’m sure they have excuses, none of which are valid. But it’s just the same hate that exists in humans like a cancer. People got upset about other races on tv, they even used the same arguments.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

By the Federations 22nd Century those "trans people" are just going to be men and woman who, for all intents and purposes, are functionally and possibly even genetically indistinguishable from the sex they choose to live as.

Just a reminder of what I said earlier in the thread to another poster:

Possum already refuted the content of your post nicely, but I'd just like to make it official that putting transgender in scare quotes to imply that it's not a real thing or not an important thing or whatever you were intending is not okay. Please don't do that again.

If you or anyone else do this again it will result in an infraction.

 

[Fateor]

Yes, it’s called erasure. Like how some used to argue that they should never mention if a character is gay or not. Because anyone could be gay, they just don’t mention it on Star Trek. Although no one complained about all the straight characters having relationships or mentioning relationships. That’s fine, but you can’t do it with gay people.

Thankfully that bullshit is over.

Except that's just a strawman of what's actually being said.

Because while you can show someone in a relationship in Trek easily enough rendering that argument moot, how exactly do you plan to go about showing someone as transgendered in the world of Star Trek that doesn't involve being an alien or a guest of the week from some regressive backwards society that isn't a part of the Federation?

Because in the Federation discrimination among humans was wiped out, personal discovery can't happen because, due to medical technology, it would be known from birth whether a person was or wasn't transgender, while transitioning would be an afternoon outpatient procedure that happened long ago and the only record of which now exists as a small notation of the procedure in a persons confidential medical file.

Just a reminder of what I said earlier in the thread to another poster:

If you or anyone else do this again it will result in an infraction.

I put those two words in quotes because I was using quote marks as they are supposed to be used to show I was giving a direct speech quotation of the words used by MadeIndescribable as a descriptive.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Except that's just a strawman of what's actually being said.

Because while you can show someone in a relationship in Trek easily enough rendering that argument moot, how exactly do you plan to go about showing someone as transgendered in the world of Star Trek that doesn't involve being an alien or a guest of the week from some regressive backwards society that isn't a part of the Federation?

The same way trans people exist in society. They live their lives and do their job. You do understand that trans people go about their lives every single day just like cis people, don’t you? We don’t have to stop and explain why Riker is a cis man, no we just accept it. Treat trans people the same way. Don’t blame me or Trek for your lack of understanding or imagination. I’ve explained how to do it multiple times and even posted videos and used examples. Other shows can do it. Yet you keep insisting it’s impossible. Maybe you should actually read and think before posting.

Because in the Federation discrimination among humans was wiped out, personal discovery can't happen because, due to medical technology, it would be known from birth whether a person was or wasn't transgender, while transitioning would be an afternoon outpatient procedure that happened long ago and the only record of which now exists as a small notation of the procedure in a persons confidential medical file.

I don’t know if you just don’t get it or don’t want to get it. You just want an excuse to show cis people. I don’t care what you think medical technology is like for trans people in the future. Star Trek is written for people in the present, it isn’t a documentary about the future. It’s fiction about what it means to be human using the future as an example we should strive for, to fight for. Given that trans people are just as human as you, just as valid as you and just as natural as you, they should be included. That means showing trans people, played by trans people. If you have issues with that, you should really reconsider why it bothers you so much. I don’t think it has anything to do with breaking the reality of fiction.

 

[Jinn]

it would be known from birth whether a person was or wasn't transgender

I don't think you can detect a person being transgender from birth. I think it was the youtuber contrapoints who said "I wasn't born a woman, I was born a fucking baby like everybody else", but I'm definitely no expert on the subject and would like to be correctly by someone who is if I'm wrong. But even if it were possible to just detect a trans person, shouldn't it still be their decision if and when they transition?

Because while you can show someone in a relationship in Trek easily enough rendering that argument moot, how exactly do you plan to go about showing someone as transgendered in the world of Star Trek that doesn't involve being an alien or a guest of the week from some regressive backwards society that isn't a part of the Federation?

It could be mentioned? Or you could shown a childhood flashback?

 

[MadeIndescribable]

I put those two words in quotes because I was using quote marks as they are supposed to be used to show I was giving a direct speech quotation of the words used by MadeIndescribable as a descriptive.

I didn't realise that I needed to be specifically quoted when using general terminology...

 

[Awesome Possum]

I don't think you can detect a person being transgender from birth. I think it was the youtuber contrapoints who said "I wasn't born a man or a woman but a fucking baby like everybody else", but I'm definitely no expert on the subject and would like to be correctly by someone who is if I'm wrong. But even if it were possible to just detect a trans person, shouldn't it still be their decision if and when they transition?

Exactly. We don’t even develop a concept of our own gender until around 4 or 5. At best, there would be more people transitioning in childhood. Something that’s already becoming a thing. Even then, some people don’t even realize they’re trans until later in life. They only notice something is wrong. But since cis is assumed to be the default, they don’t even consider it until they hear someone with a similar experience.

It could be mentioned? Or you could shown a childhood flashback?

That works. Sense8 did something similar. There were flashbacks of Nomi before transitioning. Maybe a crewmember meets some Admiral who knew her father years ago but only remembered him having sons.