Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

[bbjeg]

You've been watching too much Walking Dead.

I talked to a CDC researcher and he told me that the lab is lined with thermite in case of complete containment failure . Of course they don't mention this. They also don't mention that they have a mutant strain of Ebola Virus, that is deadly enough to kill all of humanity.

Was he pulling your leg? After Googling: CDC thermite -911 -wtc -"9-11" -make -"how to" -poisoning Nothing comes up (other than a few other opinion pieces and this thread). It sounds like your friend was joking or thinks it's lined with thermite.

With further research I came across this page which referenced the that Walking Dead episode and people (who watch too much tv) concerned with having to line there house with subnuclear shielding because they lived next to a CDC building:

We called the CDC. Officials there said the agency was not consulted during production of the show.

While the agency does have safeguards in case generators fail, a subnuclear blast is not one of them, spokeswoman Karen Hunter said.

"We do have systems in place, but none of them involve explosives," Hunter said.

 

[DarthPipes]

I wasn't arguing the morality of their actions, just that they had official sanction hence wouldn't be necessarily punished for their actions.

Coulson, Garrett and their teams didn't have official sanction for this mission. It was a completely unauthorized, personal mission that was undertaken while they were all disobeying orders. They can't hide behind national security for this one.

 

[bbjeg]

Didn't Nick Fury break into Tony Starks home after the credits of Iron Man (and Coulson broke into his tower in the Avengers)? If you haven't gotten it by now, S.H.I.E.L.D. is above the law.

 

[Mister Fandango]

If my theory is correct and these were HYDRA Agents

Why would you think that?

This was a facility that SHIELD used in the past, filled with SHIELD doctors working to save an injured SHIELD operative. If it was a HYDRA facility, what, you think Fury was like "yo, thanks for the help dawg, take care!" and just left the place after using it?

The place was clearly more like Area 51. Ultra top secret and outside the knowledge of all but he highest of the highest government types, hence it being only hinted at in a rating 10 document that Coulson never should have had to begin with. They had to hack into SHIELD's system and find the place through, yes you guessed it, even more illegal means to find the location. Which, incidentally, was in SHIELD's systems; not the best place for HYDRA to hide one of their best kept secrets, is it?

In fact, there weren't even hints that this place was some criminal underground lair of some nefarious organization. It had "secret government facility" written all over it. As it should since it was housing an alien, complete with failsafes clearly designed to contain that alien.

 

[bbjeg]

If my theory is correct and these were HYDRA Agents

Why would you think that?

This was a facility that SHIELD used in the past, filled with SHIELD doctors working to save an injured SHIELD operative. If it was a HYDRA facility, what, you think Fury was like "yo, thanks for the help dawg, take care!" and just left the place after using it?

The place was clearly more like Area 51. Ultra top secret and outside the knowledge of all but he highest of the highest government types, hence it being only hinted at in a rating 10 document that Coulson never should have had to begin with. They had to hack into SHIELD's system and find the place through, yes you guessed it, even more illegal means to find the location. Which, incidentally, was in SHIELD's systems; not the best place for HYDRA to hide one of their best kept secrets, is it?

In fact, there weren't even hints that this place was some criminal underground lair of some nefarious organization. It had "secret government facility" written all over it. As it should since it was housing an alien, complete with failsafes clearly designed to contain that alien.

I still say it was a S.W.O.R.D. facility.

 

[sojourner]

I talked to a CDC researcher and he told me that the lab is lined with thermite in case of complete containment failure . Of course they don't mention this. They also don't mention that they have a mutant strain of Ebola Virus, that is deadly enough to kill all of humanity.

Was he pulling your leg? After Googling: CDC thermite -911 -wtc -"9-11" -make -"how to" -poisoning Nothing comes up (other than a few other opinion pieces and this thread). It sounds like your friend was joking or thinks it's lined with thermite.

With further research I came across this page which referenced the that Walking Dead episode and people (who watch too much tv) concerned with having to line there house with subnuclear shielding because they lived next to a CDC building:

We called the CDC. Officials there said the agency was not consulted during production of the show.

While the agency does have safeguards in case generators fail, a subnuclear blast is not one of them, spokeswoman Karen Hunter said.

"We do have systems in place, but none of them involve explosives," Hunter said.

That must have been a tough search.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

If my theory is correct and these were HYDRA Agents

Why would you think that?

I told you. Because the guy's name was Bob.

I didn't think it made a difference who the owners were for the discussion we were having anyway. Do you disagree? If it was a HYDRA facility and Coulson was acting to save Captain America, it would still be the same issue.

This was a facility that SHIELD used in the past, filled with SHIELD doctors working to save an injured SHIELD operative. If it was a HYDRA facility, what, you think Fury was like "yo, thanks for the help dawg, take care!" and just left the place after using it?

The place was clearly more like Area 51. Ultra top secret and outside the knowledge of all but he highest of the highest government types, hence it being only hinted at in a rating 10 document that Coulson never should have had to begin with. They had to hack into SHIELD's system and find the place through, yes you guessed it, even more illegal means to find the location. Which, incidentally, was in SHIELD's systems; not the best place for HYDRA to hide one of their best kept secrets, is it?

In fact, there weren't even hints that this place was some criminal underground lair of some nefarious organization. It had "secret government facility" written all over it. As it should since it was housing an alien, complete with failsafes clearly designed to contain that alien.

They were experimenting on an alien for the purposes of extracting chemicals from it to heal people. The implication I got was that the alien was still alive. The implication was that there was shady shit going on. And the fact that Fury went outside of SHIELD to do it suggested some kind of deal with the devil as opposed to genuinely nice bunch of scientists.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I just watched the firefight again, and I have a couple of extra points to mention:

- After the mega-flash-bang grenade is thrown, Hudson runs right up to the blinded and disoriented guard and shoots Paul Blart: Vault Cop under his body armor, while holding him. He gutshots him; the most slow and painful wound there is, when he could have just beat him up using their fancy SHIELD martial arts or wrestled him to the ground at that point.

You made me laugh.

Paxton would have made a good Nick Fury. All he was lacking in this episode was a eypatch.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Chloe Bennett telling an interviewer about an upcoming guest, but not revealing who the guest is.

Apparently, it will be Fan-pleaser.

 

[Captain Qwert Jr]

But why is that the overriding factor in determining how we as an audience feel about their actions? That's what confuses me, that people seem to be getting angry about what they did for reasons that are strictly about legal and bureaucratic technicalities rather than identification with characters' emotions and intentions. There have been literally thousands of stories about protagonists breaking the law and killing people in order to save or avenge their loved ones. So I honestly don't understand why people are talking about this event as if it were an assault with the specific intent to murder and destroy, rather than what it actually was, a mission of mercy gone badly wrong.

Murder is not a technicality.

My sympathy ends at murder.

I have never read these thousands of stories you speak of. If you have I strongly advise you to stop.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I don't think it'll be murder except in the most technical sense of felony-murder. Manslaughter, perhaps but they clearly didn't use deadly force except in response to deal force of people using that force to protect property (which you aren't allowed to do except in Texas).

The Bennett interview is intriguing and definitely suggests the logo change was for something big.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think it'll be murder except in the most technical sense of felony-murder. Manslaughter, perhaps but they clearly didn't use deadly force except in response to deal force of people using that force to protect property (which you aren't allowed to do except in Texas).

If they hadn't been breaking and entering, it would clearly constitute self-defense, because they only returned fire to save their own lives (and pursue their mission to save Skye's life) when they were fired upon.

But if, as you say, most people don't have the right to fire automatic weapons at intruders on their property, then it's quite possible the Guest House people were committing a crime as well. So that might cancel out. There are more mitigating circumstances on the Bus team's side than the Guest House's side, because the former were trying to save a life and were forced into a firefight against their wishes, while the latter were trying to cover up their secrets with deadly force.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Anyway, I think the law is besides the point and I don't want to rehash all that. Who do we think the other group was? I argued HYDRA and I'll flesh out my argument a little more:

It involved an organization other than SHIELD
It involved an organization that does disreputable things (at least, no more reputable than SHIELD)
It involved an organization that used a World War II bunker
It involved an organization known to Fury
It involved an organization that Fury did not want to admit contacting (even in a level 10 classified of report)
It involved someone named Bob
It did not involve Centipede or the Clairvoyant

On top of that, we know that HYDRA survived World War II because they were mentioned in 0-8-4. Really, the episodes are being shown to be more connected and there's very little connected to that episode beyond just "what an 0-8-4 is." However, that episode was essentially about HYDRA. My theory is that HYDRA is still out there and Fury knew it. In order to save Coulson, he made a deal with HYDRA.

While, certainly, an argument could be made for SWORD, there's also a debate whether Marvel even owns the rights. I also think there would be fewer reasons to pretend that the procedures occurred in Bethesda.

 

[Mister Fandango]

But if, as you say, most people don't have the right to fire automatic weapons at intruders on their property, then it's quite possible the Guest House people were committing a crime as well. So that might cancel out. There are more mitigating circumstances on the Bus team's side than the Guest House's side, because the former were trying to save a life and were forced into a firefight against their wishes, while the latter were trying to cover up their secrets with deadly force.

By all evidence and simple logic, this was a government or military black site, and Coulson was committing serious crimes (accessing classified material, ordering others to do the same, plus the murder of government/military men protecting their charge) just by being at the site, all while already in hot water for disobeying orders and demonstrating that he's gone rogue. There was no evidence that this was an illegal facility, just one being kept quiet. There was no evidence that it belonged to some evil organization bent on world domination, it was being used by SHIELD with SHIELD doctors to save a SHIELD agent's life, and if it had been some evil orgnaization, they sure as shit wouldn't have just turned it back over to them when they were done.

Fuck, just walk onto any open military base like Fort Benning or something, pull out a pistol, and start shooting guards because they're blocking you from getting whatever the hell you want. See how long you last before getting shot between the eyes, then see who gets in trouble for being on which side of the fence.

Hell, even in the show's universe, try walking onto the Bus with some buddies because you want to get what's left of the GH-253 (or whatever the number was) so you can save your sick grandmother. See if you don't get your heads blown off even in that situation, too. "Mah granny's sick! She's sick, I tells ya! Ignore the black armor and automatic weapons I'm packin', it's all inconsequential, I's assures ya!" <BANG, you just shot out the one camera they had aimed at you, then storm up the ramp with your buddies coming in hot and waving their guns all around, ready to shoot at the drop of a hat> "I jus' came cause mah granny's in a WHOLE lot o' pains! (Quick, Bob, while I have them distracted, break into their security system and take it all down.) Oh Lordy, she's sooo sick, please halp!!!"

Seriously, how dense can some people be?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I disagree with there being no evidence of it being an evil organization. I think the evidence is that they found a living being and tortured and experimented on it to extract it as a natural resource. I thought the implication was that it was still alive even though its missing half its torso, being maintained alive in order to continue to harvest from it.

However, you keep mentioning this fact like it's important. If it were revealed to be a HYDRA facility, would that change your opinion of what happened there?

ETA: Quick comment on if the circumstances were reversed. I would have expected a dialog filled with "how can I trust you's," etc. I can't recall any time bad guys came posing as good guys and the first reaction was to start shooting. The closest I can think of was with Rousseau in LOST (when she shot Ben with a crossbow). Even then, they didn't just kill him to be on the safe side.

 

[Mr Light]

As we learned in Hickman's Secret Warriors, SHIELD and Hydra are the same thing, they just don't realize it.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Literally or figuratively?

 

[Mr Light]

I haven't read it in years, but basically Nick Fury found out that SHIELD and Hydra were both part of the same vast conspiracy that was running the world. But of course only a couple of people at the top knew it. Baron Von Strucker knew it. Fury didn't, despite being the Director of SHIELD for all those decades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_warriors

 

[Alidar Jarok]

It's entirely possible that they were inspired by that. It's also entirely possible The Winter Soldier is inspired by that. I guess we'll find out by the end of May.

 

[Captain Qwert Jr]

If they hadn't been breaking and entering, it would clearly constitute self-defense, because they only returned fire to save their own lives (and pursue their mission to save Skye's life) when they were fired upon.

This is the part your not processing.

Coulson and his team did break in. He went from asking to assaulting. He is a trained agent. He knew this would bring on a fire-fight. He is responsible for everything that followed.
When you instigate a fight, they fight back, and you kill them Guess what! You're a murderer.

And of course the guards would not have returned fire, if Coulson didn't break in. They would have no freaking reason to do so.