I wished the video had captions. I assume that was Robin Cirtis and a son of Sarek?If you haven't already, you should check out this production from OTOY, the company behind the amazing Roddenberry archive and the above clip of Saavik. It was made with the cooperation of Paramount and has William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy's widow listed as executive producers.
The story is... vague and open to interpretation by the viewer and ties in with the other shorts that they have produced. As noted in the Saavik clip, the lack of dialogue was a deliberate choice and the whole idea came from a feeling from the people at OTOY that Kirk and Spock deserved to have a final farewell between them.
All three versions of Kirk are portrayed by Sam Witwer and Spock by Lawrence Sellek, but with the digital mask technology used as seen above, they are near indistinguishable from Shatner and Nimoy, and it was shot in real time without post production.
According to Sam Witwer, the whole point of the endeavor is to give actors and their families a way to own and copyright their own image and likeness in perpetuity, so it can't be used without their permission.
And to top it all off, the end result, as seen in Unification, actually comes off looking much better than Luke Skywalker did in The Mandalorian or John Delancey did in those first few moments that we saw him as Q in Picard season two.
And yes, that is Gary Lockwood reprising his role as Gary Mitchell from the second Star Trek pilot, Where No Man Has gone before. And yes, that is indeed Robin Curtis, portraying Saavik using traditional prosthetic makeup to age her up.
The relevance to this conversation is that a much easier way now exists to make actors appear as they were 20 years ago. And that same technique could also be used to simply bring a new actor in altogether wearing the digital mask, with the original actors permission of course.
Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion about Unification, I just wanted to note how easy it would be to bring Gandalf and Frodo into The Hunt for Gollum.
Unification discussion...
765874 - Unification
Not sure this counts as fan production, given that Shatner and Curtis came back and there is a certain level of official involvement, what I’m sure is that once I understood what I was actually witnessing I got very emotional.www.trekbbs.com
Roddenberry archive.
Be warned --one can spend hours here getting lost in their faithful recreation of starship bridges and the DS9 Promenade and among other locations.
Rings of Power S3/Hunt for Gollum Anticipation and JRR Tolkien Discussion thread
- Thread starter Turtletrekker
- Start date
I've seen the Unification short, which I thought was really cool, I just didn't realize the Saavik clip was related to it. I love their ship recreations, I've been on there quite a few times wandering around their different ships and stuff. I was actually just on earlier this week after they added a whole bunch of new locations.If you haven't already, you should check out this production from OTOY, the company behind the amazing Roddenberry archive and the above clip of Saavik. It was made with the cooperation of Paramount and has William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy's widow listed as executive producers.
The story is... vague and open to interpretation by the viewer and ties in with the other shorts that they have produced. As noted in the Saavik clip, the lack of dialogue was a deliberate choice and the whole idea came from a feeling from the people at OTOY that Kirk and Spock deserved to have a final farewell between them.
All three versions of Kirk are portrayed by Sam Witwer and Spock by Lawrence Sellek, but with the digital mask technology used as seen above, they are near indistinguishable from Shatner and Nimoy, and it was shot in real time without post production.
According to Sam Witwer, the whole point of the endeavor is to give actors and their families a way to own and copyright their own image and likeness in perpetuity, so it can't be used without their permission.
And to top it all off, the end result, as seen in Unification, actually comes off looking much better than Luke Skywalker did in The Mandalorian or John Delancey did in those first few moments that we saw him as Q in Picard season two.
And yes, that is Gary Lockwood reprising his role as Gary Mitchell from the second Star Trek pilot, Where No Man Has gone before. And yes, that is indeed Robin Curtis, portraying Saavik using traditional prosthetic makeup to age her up.
The relevance to this conversation is that a much easier way now exists to make actors appear as they were 20 years ago. And that same technique could also be used to simply bring a new actor in altogether wearing the digital mask, with the original actors permission of course.
Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion about Unification, I just wanted to note how easy it would be to bring Gandalf and Frodo into The Hunt for Gollum.
Unification discussion...
765874 - Unification
Not sure this counts as fan production, given that Shatner and Curtis came back and there is a certain level of official involvement, what I’m sure is that once I understood what I was actually witnessing I got very emotional.
Roddenberry archive.
Be warned --one can spend hours here getting lost in their faithful recreation of starship bridges and the DS9 Promenade and among other locations.
I would not be at all surprised if they ended up recasting Aragorn, he's probably going to be a fairly big part of the movie, I'm not sure if they'd want to have deage Viggo Mortensen the whole time.
That was Robin Curtis as Saavik and Spock's son, picking up the dropped plotline from Star Trek IV that Saavik had become pregnant from Spock during the Pon Farr sequence in Star Trek III. But let's not derail this thread as the only relevance here is the technology, not the story.
So I'm almost done with the narrative part of The Return of the King and I had some questions, because I definitely want more Middle Earth after this.
What is exactly is the relationship between The Silmarillion and the Children of Hurin, Beren and Luthien, and The Fall of Gondolin? Are the later three expansions of stories from The Silmarillion, or just stories from it now being released as stand alone books?
Are there any books or anything that are set during The Fourth Age?
Would it be possible to do movies or series based on Children of Hurin, Beren and Luthien, or Fall of Gondolin? I know the Silmarillion doesn't really have a narrative that could be adapted, but I wasn't sure about them. It just seems a little odd to me that all of the stuff we've been lately have all been original stories, instead of adapting them.
What is exactly is the relationship between The Silmarillion and the Children of Hurin, Beren and Luthien, and The Fall of Gondolin? Are the later three expansions of stories from The Silmarillion, or just stories from it now being released as stand alone books?
Are there any books or anything that are set during The Fourth Age?
Would it be possible to do movies or series based on Children of Hurin, Beren and Luthien, or Fall of Gondolin? I know the Silmarillion doesn't really have a narrative that could be adapted, but I wasn't sure about them. It just seems a little odd to me that all of the stuff we've been lately have all been original stories, instead of adapting them.
The Silmarillion is a dry history of all of Middle-earth, left unpublished before J.R.R. Tolkien's death and probably the most complete work prior to Christopher Tolkien's editing. It's best read as a history book and it doesn't need to be read in chronological order (in fact, I wouldn't even recommend it). Instead, it's best to read the certain portions of its history you're most interested in and go from there.
Out of Beren and Lúthien, The Children of Húrin, and The Fall of Gondolin (as well as The Fall of Númenor), I've only read The Fall of Gondolin. You can read my extensive review here, but the short version is it's a collection of Tolkien's writings that don't quite form a complete narrative, which is heavily edited by Christopher with some commentary on the nature of the writing and his interpretation of his father's intentions. My own interpretation of the two main narrative bodies is that they can fit together well enough, even if it's still incomplete and lacks a full, substantive story.
I believe Beren and Lúthien and The Fall of Númenor are presented in a similar fashion (although the latter isn't edited by Christopher and instead is edited by a Tolkien scholar), while The Children of Húrin is based on a more complete manuscript that Christopher fleshed out. All of those tales have shorter entries within The Silmarillion itself.
I would highly recommend reading each of their respective Wikipedia articles to get a better sense of content of their narratives.
Aside from musings in note form in The History of Middle-earth (the massive 12-volume series that publishes many of Tolkien's notes in various forms and drafts), there isn't anything set in the Fourth Age. Since I haven't read any of those entries, I don't know how extensive those musings are but I don't believe it's much.
As for adaptation, I can only comment on The Fall of Gondolin (since it's been years since I've read any entries in The Silmarillion) and I think it could work as a film for Tolkien fans but I'm not sure what the draw would be for the general audience since the narrative is incomplete. I suspect The Children of Húrin might work since it's more complete but that's just speculation on my part.
As for why it hasn't happened, it all comes down to rights. That's the reason why Rings of Power has made so much up: It can only draw from The Return of the King appendices and they're pretty limited, especially in comparison to The Silmarillion and other expanded resources.
Out of Beren and Lúthien, The Children of Húrin, and The Fall of Gondolin (as well as The Fall of Númenor), I've only read The Fall of Gondolin. You can read my extensive review here, but the short version is it's a collection of Tolkien's writings that don't quite form a complete narrative, which is heavily edited by Christopher with some commentary on the nature of the writing and his interpretation of his father's intentions. My own interpretation of the two main narrative bodies is that they can fit together well enough, even if it's still incomplete and lacks a full, substantive story.
I believe Beren and Lúthien and The Fall of Númenor are presented in a similar fashion (although the latter isn't edited by Christopher and instead is edited by a Tolkien scholar), while The Children of Húrin is based on a more complete manuscript that Christopher fleshed out. All of those tales have shorter entries within The Silmarillion itself.
I would highly recommend reading each of their respective Wikipedia articles to get a better sense of content of their narratives.
Aside from musings in note form in The History of Middle-earth (the massive 12-volume series that publishes many of Tolkien's notes in various forms and drafts), there isn't anything set in the Fourth Age. Since I haven't read any of those entries, I don't know how extensive those musings are but I don't believe it's much.
As for adaptation, I can only comment on The Fall of Gondolin (since it's been years since I've read any entries in The Silmarillion) and I think it could work as a film for Tolkien fans but I'm not sure what the draw would be for the general audience since the narrative is incomplete. I suspect The Children of Húrin might work since it's more complete but that's just speculation on my part.
As for why it hasn't happened, it all comes down to rights. That's the reason why Rings of Power has made so much up: It can only draw from The Return of the King appendices and they're pretty limited, especially in comparison to The Silmarillion and other expanded resources.
...yes?
I don't know that I would necessarily use the term 'expansion' but they aren't the Silmarillion versions. I haven't read them, though.
The versions of these narratives that I'm familiar with are the versions which appear in The Silmarillion, The Book of Lost Tales, and Unfinished Tales.
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And The Silmarillion absolutely does have a narrative through line. The Silmarils, Morgoth, Feanor and the oath that he forced upon his children are themes and story points that evolve throughout the work and come to definitive conclusions.
There is also The Fall of Numenor to consider, although that is less of a narrative and more a collection of excerpts, essays, and quotes from interviews and letters. But it's the most comprehensive collection of everything that Tolkien wrote about the second age of Middle Earth. All this material was originally spread out through numerous volumes, but it's collected here in chronological order, which makes for an easier understanding of the material. However, it reads more like a history text than a fantasy story. (@The Nth Doctor -- Did you ever read this one? I remember you saying in the last thread that you needed to find the time.)
There is also The Fall of Numenor to consider, although that is less of a narrative and more a collection of excerpts, essays, and quotes from interviews and letters. But it's the most comprehensive collection of everything that Tolkien wrote about the second age of Middle Earth. All this material was originally spread out through numerous volumes, but it's collected here in chronological order, which makes for an easier understanding of the material. However, it reads more like a history text than a fantasy story. (@The Nth Doctor -- Did you ever read this one? I remember you saying in the last thread that you needed to find the time.)
Unfortunately, I haven't gotten to it. Still sitting in my ever-growing to-read pile. Perhaps when I finally get bitten by the Tolkien bug again I'll jump in.
Not really, no. Just a timeline of events. There's more here if curious:
Fourth Age
The Fourth Age was the time period that followed the Third Age and the War of the Ring. It was a time of peace, and was also known as the "Age of Men". The Fourth Age began two years after Sauron's fall and destruction of the One Ring, following the final diminishing of the Elves, and within a...
lotr.fandom.com
Tolkien did begin work on a sequel, but he quickly abandoned it after only writing 13 pages because he thought it was too depressing.
lotr.fandom.com
The New Shadow
The New Shadow was an incomplete sequel (approximately 13 pages) to The Lord of the Rings that J.R.R. Tolkien quickly abandoned, but may have come back to. It is set during the reign of Eldarion, Aragorn's son. Tolkien originally set the story approximately 105 years after the fall of the...
lotr.fandom.com
I'm up to Durin's Folk in the Annals of the Kings, and the amount of detail Tolkien put into the worldbuilding and history of Middle Earth is just mind blowing. It took Star Wars and Star Trek 50 and 60 years, and dozens of different writers to even come close to building up the kind of history he gave Middle Earth.
This also got me wanting more Middle Earth, so I decided to rewatch the Rings of Power, now that I have a better idea of it's source material. Now that I know where they're going with Numenor,
This also got me wanting more Middle Earth, so I decided to rewatch the Rings of Power, now that I have a better idea of it's source material. Now that I know where they're going with Numenor,
I'm very curious to see how the show is going to handle Sauron's role in all of that. I had seen references on here and other places to Sauron's role in the fall of Numenor, and I had been assuming that he was disguised and they had no idea who he was, but in the appendix Ar-Pharazon knew exactly who he was.
I finished up the part of the Appendices that I'm going to read. I was a little shocked in The Tale of the Years that there was so much else going on at the same time as LOTR with all of the fighting by Erebor and Dale and in Lorien. I'm a little shocked we never see any of the fighting in Lorien in the movies, it would have been a great way to give Galadriel and Celeborn (I think that's her husband) more screen time.
Rings of Power season 3 set photos reveal the meeting of...
www.theonering.net
From this we can infer...
...Ar-Pharazon, Gil-Galad and Elrond.
SPY REPORT: Leaked photos of Rings of Power S3 confirm Long Expected Meeting
3 key characters spotted on the coast of Dorset, U.K. in huge location shoot with Prime Video.
www.theonering.net
From this we can infer...
Ar-Pharazon will come to Middle-earth to help the Elves deal with the threat of Sauron and bring him back to Numenor afterwards, sealing the fate of the island nation. The only question is how long they're going to stretch the story here. Will Numenor meet its fate in this season or in the next? I hope for this season.
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Yeah, that feels like the kind of story that should move fairly quickly, so I really hope they don't drag it out beyond this season. I'm pretty sure they're going to want to get to the beginnings on Gondor soon, and it would probably work better to start eliminating some settings before we add even more, and given how things played out in the original lore, Numenor would be the one to get rid of.
My guess is...Rings of Power season 3 set photos reveal the meeting of...
...Ar-Pharazon, Gil-Galad and Elrond.
SPY REPORT: Leaked photos of Rings of Power S3 confirm Long Expected Meeting
3 key characters spotted on the coast of Dorset, U.K. in huge location shoot with Prime Video.
From this we can infer...
Ar-Pharazon will come to Middle-earth to help the elves deal with the threat of Sauron and bring him back to Numenor afterwards, sealing the fate of the island nation. The only question is how long they're going to stretch the story here. Will Numenor meet its fate in this season or in the next? I hope for this season.
Season 3 will end with Sauron being taken to Númenor as a prisoner, and season 4 will focus on his fully corrupting the Númenóreans and culminating with the Drowning and the Faithful establishing Arnor and Gondor in Middle-earth. That leaves season 5 to focus on the War of the Last Alliance and the end of the Second Age.
There was a truly bonkers allegation over at The AV Club this week, which shared a post by an entertainment reporting site called The Ankler: "If it canceled the show, Amazon would have to pay the Tolkien estate a $20 million per season kill fee, the newsletter reports. Since the company initially signed a five-season deal," and the third season is currently in production, "that would come out to $40 million total. On one hand, that’s the price of a mere two episodes from season one. Due to tax incentives from relocating the production out of New Zealand, however, The Ankler reports that costs on seasons two and three have been 'dramatically reduced' from that initial price tag."
If true... wow, just wow; I have no words. The idea that Amazon's just slogging through three of five seasons because not doing so would cost them more is gobsmacking - especially for a show that's reportedly already lost a whopping 60% of its first-season audience.
If true... wow, just wow; I have no words. The idea that Amazon's just slogging through three of five seasons because not doing so would cost them more is gobsmacking - especially for a show that's reportedly already lost a whopping 60% of its first-season audience.