Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

[Christopher]

People seem to like May too, but she's a cypher who rarely speaks and we still don't know much about her backstory. I think people haven't quite fully warmed up to her yet.

Actually she's had a lot of lengthy monologues in the past 2-3 episodes. I think the whole "rarely speaks" thing has fallen by the wayside. She was closed off to begin with, but being on the team has drawn her out more.

I assume you haven't seen the Marvel Studios: Assembling a Universe TV Special. They spoiled the hell out of CA:TWS.

I did see that special, and I don't agree. They "spoiled" the Winter Soldier's true identity -- something that the whole comics audience already knew -- but even after watching the special, I was still entirely surprised by the HYDRA reveal in the film, and by the revelations of who was working for HYDRA. If anything, they used the Winter Soldier-identity spoiler to distract us from the bigger spoilers, and it worked.

I was wondering why the World Council would be so against forming the Avengers (by cancelling the initiative, they said the personalities wouldn't work, but that's not really a convincing reason, for me) and then trying to kill them all (by launching a nuclear strike on them). Hydra may just have wanted no Avengers around to stop their plans. And then Fury defied the council so his days were numbered.

No --

Spoiler: TWS

Pierce was the only HYDRA member on the Council, and he wasn't there in The Avengers.

It's not hard to understand why the Council was skeptical of the Avengers Initiative. I mean, look at the roster. A dissolute, borderline-unstable bad-boy billionaire. A fugitive doctor who occasionally turns into an unstoppable rage monster. A powerful alien who may or may not ever be able to return to Earth at all and whose true loyalties are unclear. A couple of spies who can fight well but have no powers and questionable ethics. And a WWII hero who was only defrosted months before. The idea of trusting the security of the world to a ragtag band of weirdos and loose cannons like that sounds completely insane on paper. It was an enormous gamble on Fury's part, and it's perfectly understandable why the Council would've preferred to rely on more conventional defenses like armies and missiles.

And no, they did not launch that nuclear weapon with the goal of killing the Avengers. They did it with the goal of saving the rest of the planet by sacrificing one city. They didn't want to kill the people who were already there in New York, but they believed it was the only way to close the portal and save the world, and they were convinced that if they didn't do it, everyone in New York would've been doomed anyway, along with the rest of the human race. And they had every reason to hold that conviction. It may be dramatic and exciting to write a story where a desperately outmatched band of heroes pulls an insane hail-Mary play at the last second and saves everyone, but nobody who's actually responsible for the safety of the world would be willing to rely on such a strategy, not with seven billion people at stake.

 

[bbjeg]

...

I assume you haven't seen the Marvel Studios: Assembling a Universe TV Special. They spoiled the hell out of CA:TWS.

I did see that special, and I don't agree. They "spoiled" the Winter Soldier's true identity -- something that the whole comics audience already knew -- but even after watching the special, I was still entirely surprised by the HYDRA reveal in the film, and by the revelations of who was working for HYDRA. If anything, they used the Winter Soldier-identity spoiler to distract us from the bigger spoilers, and it worked.
...

IIRC They revealed HYDRA indirectly when saying they worked on him half way through CA:TFA and then found him after he was the only Howling Commando lost.

 

[Photoman15]

There IS NO actual "Clairvoyant". I don't know if some of you were not paying attention. It was whoever is in control of Hydra/Shield who had access to high level records that attempted to make it look like it was someone with a gift.

 

[Christopher]

There IS NO actual "Clairvoyant". I don't know if some of you were not paying attention. It was whoever is in control of Hydra/Shield who had access to high level records that attempted to make it look like it was someone with a gift.

Well, yes, it was made clear last week that there was no actual clairvoyant power involved. We're talking about "the Clairvoyant" as the assumed title for a specific individual and discussing who that individual was, without assuming that the title was factually accurate. I mean, we can talk about Black Widow without implying belief that she is actually a spider of the genus Latrodectus.

 

[sojourner]

There IS NO actual "Clairvoyant". I don't know if some of you were not paying attention. It was whoever is in control of Hydra/Shield who had access to high level records that attempted to make it look like it was someone with a gift.

Yep, we all got that. Still, the label is "The Clairvoyant" when referring to that person.

 

[FPAlpha]

I'm a bit amused how some people here are coming up with theories to excuse Ward's behaviour and find ways to make a return to the team possible (some kind of outside influence is the most favorite option).

If the writing/producing team has any courage they will have him stay the villain.. some people are really not who they seem to be and it would be a big cop out now if it turns out he was mind-controlled somehow or the team lets him back with a mere slap on the wrist.

He has killed loyal Shield agents.. there is no turning it either way to make this forgivable. The only way Ward has to get some respect and redemption is to die doing a last good thing like saving the team from certain death.

For me i can't think of a possible reason how they could take Ward back and accept him as one of their own and if that ever happens it either has to be one heck of a brilliant script or the show jumps the shark.

 

[bbjeg]

^He gets reduced to level 4?

 

[DEWLine]

Level Minus-Six.

 

[bbjeg]

Personally, I hope Ward stays the bad guy too.

Just speculating, I don't think Ward is innocent but from the sound of things, Natasha has done far worse in her day, yet she was forgiven and wasn't a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent at the time. Maybe S.H.I.E.L.D. doesn't care so long as the killing machine is on their side and their heart's in the right place.

 

[Christopher]

I'm a bit amused how some people here are coming up with theories to excuse Ward's behaviour and find ways to make a return to the team possible (some kind of outside influence is the most favorite option).

Looking over the responses at various sites, I've noticed a progression similar to the "stages of grief" model. First denial -- "He can't really be a HYDRA agent, it's just an act, and he just pretended to kill Hand!" Then bargaining -- "Okay, he's working for Garrett, but maybe he's just an opportunist or he's been brainwashed or something." And now I'm seeing more acceptance -- "Okay, Ward's a traitor, now what does that mean for the future?" Not a lot of anger or depression, though, since I don't think that many people had a strong emotional investment in the character.

Just speculating, I don't think Ward is innocent but from the sound of things, Natasha has done far worse in her day, yet she was forgiven and wasn't a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent at the time. Maybe S.H.I.E.L.D. doesn't care so long as the killing machine is on their side and their heart's in the right place.

But Natasha not being a SHIELD agent is the key difference. She didn't betray any oaths to them when she did those bad things, and she wasn't part of an enemy actively undermining them from the inside. Generally people see traitors within their own ranks as being even worse than outright enemies. So SHIELD might be a lot less forgiving of Ward than they were of Natasha.

Although, of course,

Spoiler: TWS

SHIELD doesn't exist anymore, so that's kind of a moot question.

 

[DEWLine]

One of the premises of Winter Soldier could be that this was SHIELD's worst recruitment issue.

 

[Gryffindorian]

Wasn't Ward recruited at the very beginning of the series (along with Skye)?

 

[DEWLine]

For Coulson's field team, yes.

Ward had been working for SHIELD for some years prior to that point.

 

[Captain Craig]

I don't see Garrett as the Clairvoyant if only for real world details that Paxton only signed for 4 episodes right? Wasn't this latest episode his third and the show has 5 more episodes to go.

 

[gblews]

It is the real Ward. The producers have made it quite clear in several interviews that they've been seeding clues to his true allegiances all along.

There is, of course, the possibility that he's been brainwashed or mind-controlled, but I think that would be too simplistic a direction to go. And pointless too -- if he's been under mind control since the day we met him, then we've never met the "true" Ward so it wouldn't be getting back the guy we knew. It's preferable, I think, if he really was a sleeper agent all along, a loyal HYDRA man, but has developed attachments to the team that will give him doubts about his true loyalties and his future actions. Mind control is a storytelling cheat; it's more interesting and meaningful if characters make choices for their own authentic reasons.

Agreed. It's way more interesting for his betrayal to be genuine.

Have to say though I'm confused as to why people are having such a hard time accepting that a person we've known all along was a trained killer, adept at infiltration, subterfuge and working solo undercover...is a lying two-faced murderer who fooled everyone around him. Logic error?

I think because if it is true that Ward is actually really a bad guy, it would truly be groundbreaking for network T.V. Ward is the hunky male lead who you know will get with the "cute" female lead eventually. I don't know if turning this guy bad has ever been done before on network broadcast T.V. This would be like Will Ryker turning out to be a Romulan agent, or Chacotay turning out to be working with the Borg or (those people with the crazy hair).

As hard core as nuBSG was, they chose to keep Lee Adama human and loyal to his Dad. If this turns out to be what it appears to be, AoS may have done in it's first season what most, if not all network broadcast dramas, have not had the guts to do.

 

[Christopher]

For Coulson's field team, yes.

Ward had been working for SHIELD for some years prior to that point.

Yes, long enough to reach Level 6 clearance.

I don't see Garrett as the Clairvoyant if only for real world details that Paxton only signed for 4 episodes right? Wasn't this latest episode his third and the show has 5 more episodes to go.

Again, though, "the Clairvoyant" was a red herring. The actual Big Bad all along has been HYDRA, and the threats of "Centipede" and "the Clairvoyant" were distractions to keep us (and the Bus team) from realizing what was really going on.

And the nature of HYDRA is right there in its name: The monster with many heads, with two growing back for every one you cut off. So even if Garrett is defeated, HYDRA will still be there.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

It is the real Ward. The producers have made it quite clear in several interviews that they've been seeding clues to his true allegiances all along.

There is, of course, the possibility that he's been brainwashed or mind-controlled, but I think that would be too simplistic a direction to go. And pointless too -- if he's been under mind control since the day we met him, then we've never met the "true" Ward so it wouldn't be getting back the guy we knew. It's preferable, I think, if he really was a sleeper agent all along, a loyal HYDRA man, but has developed attachments to the team that will give him doubts about his true loyalties and his future actions. Mind control is a storytelling cheat; it's more interesting and meaningful if characters make choices for their own authentic reasons.

Agreed. It's way more interesting for his betrayal to be genuine.

Have to say though I'm confused as to why people are having such a hard time accepting that a person we've known all along was a trained killer, adept at infiltration, subterfuge and working solo undercover...is a lying two-faced murderer who fooled everyone around him. Logic error?

I think because if it is true that Ward is actually really a bad guy, it would truly be groundbreaking for network T.V. Ward is the hunky male lead who you know will get with the "cute" female lead eventually. I don't know if turning this guy bad has ever been done before on network broadcast T.V. This would be like Will Ryker turning out to be a Romulan agent, or Chacotay turning out to be working with the Borg or (those people with the crazy hair).

As hard core as nuBSG was, they chose to keep Lee Adama human and loyal to his Dad. If this turns out to be what it appears to be, AoS may have done in it's first season what most, if not all network broadcast dramas, have not had the guts to do.

Buffy kind of did it with Angel.
Though Angel was redeemed by having his sould reinstated. At least by the show's rules.
He had 2 distinctive personalities.
Curiously that wasn't true of Spike.

 

[bbjeg]

Just speculating, I don't think Ward is innocent but from the sound of things, Natasha has done far worse in her day, yet she was forgiven and wasn't a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent at the time. Maybe S.H.I.E.L.D. doesn't care so long as the killing machine is on their side and their heart's in the right place.

But Natasha not being a SHIELD agent is the key difference. She didn't betray any oaths to them when she did those bad things, and she wasn't part of an enemy actively undermining them from the inside. Generally people see traitors within their own ranks as being even worse than outright enemies. So SHIELD might be a lot less forgiving of Ward than they were of Natasha.

Well, they could just give him new memories.

True, Ward has a very slim chance to redeem himself without dying.

Although, of course,

Spoiler: TWS

SHIELD doesn't exist anymore, so that's kind of a moot question.

Spoiler: in response to your spoiler.

AoS has a few episodes left so we'll see.

... if it is true that Ward is actually really a bad guy, it would truly be groundbreaking for network T.V. Ward is the hunky male lead who you know will get with the "cute" female lead eventually. I don't know if turning this guy bad has ever been done before on network broadcast T.V. This would be like Will Ryker turning out to be a Romulan agent, or Chacotay turning out to be working with the Borg or (those people with the crazy hair).
...

TNG did it with Ro.

 

[JD]

I am definitely glad I waited to watch "Turn, Turn, Turn" after I saw TWS yesterday morning. I think this was the best episode of the series yet, and I can't wait to see where it goes.
I did not see the Ward or Garrett reveals coming. At I'm honestly not sure what to make of Ward. Based on what we've seen so far, I don't really have a problem with Garrett being "The Clairvoyant.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Fury was a level Ten Shield Agent.

If he made it to level 11, they would have told him that Shield works for Hydra.

Ward is still a level 11 Agent.