Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

[LaxScrutiny]

Ummm, it was a private installation and they were security with legal authority to protect it.

Whoa now, not sure where you're getting any sort of legal authority from? There was nothing legal going on there. It was specifically stated to be not Shield. Whoever those two guards answered to, it wasn't any sort of legal government authority.

It seemed to be a facility designed specifically for medical experiments that were NOT legal, be it whatever questionable procedures were used on Coulson, or experimenting on still-alive (?) aliens. This was the definition of off the books and beyond the law.

Any property, regardless of who owns it, may not be legally broken into. Any "agent", which I mean in a legal sense like a superintendent, property manager, security guard, etc., has authority to deny entry or remove someone for any reason. This legal authority dates back at least a thousand years in common law and is unquestionable.

If you come to a property, the door is locked, the person inside refuses you entry, and you break in, then the person inside, whether they are the owner or the owner's agent, has authority to remove you. If you are pointing a gun at them, you are already a criminal and they have legal right to defend themselves. This isn't even anything radical like "Stand your ground"; it is the law in every jurisdiction I can think of.

As far as "off the books" giving you any legal or moral defence, I suggest you try breaking into a CIA base because you are hungry and want to raid the fridge and see how far that gets you.

Yes, Skye was dying. People die; we all will. It would be ironic if Coulson goes through all of that, and Skye ends up slipping in the shower and cracking her head next episode. Her medical condition did not justify killing two people and destroying research that, down the road, could have benefitted billions of people.

 

[Christopher]

There was nothing legal going on there. It was specifically stated to be not Shield. Whoever those two guards answered to, it wasn't any sort of legal government authority.

What? There is no logic by which "not a SHIELD facility" equals "not a government facility of any kind." SHIELD is not a government. In the MCU, it's a military/intelligence organization working for an international body called the World Security Council -- making it analogous to UN peacekeepers but with a lot more clout. But every nation on Earth still has its own individual government, and we've already seen several episodes in which representatives of the governments of various nations were at odds with the SHIELD team. The Guest House was very clearly a government facility of some sort, just operated by a different agency than SHIELD. It might be operated by the US government (given the accents of the guards), or it might be a different agency operated by the World Security Council, a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing because of security compartmentalization. (Last night's Person of Interest gave an example of just this kind of situation, in which two different US government black-ops teams were fighting each other over the same target, one trying to assassinate him and the other trying to capture the secret data in his possession.)

It seemed to be a facility designed specifically for medical experiments that were NOT legal, be it whatever questionable procedures were used on Coulson, or experimenting on still-alive (?) aliens. This was the definition of off the books and beyond the law.

Not legal, definitely. But "not legal" does not mean "not government." Governments often feel free to ignore their own laws when it suits them.

 

[bbjeg]

Speaking of special snowflakes, I still don't see why Coulson is so important that Fury "moved heaven and earth" to save him.

I'm wondering if this very episode was part of the reason Fury saved Coulson. Perhaps Fury wanted to shut down some operations that he was not allowed to shut down, including tonight's. Maybe Fury set Coulson in motion knowing he'd eventually find/expose the truth about how he was brought back from death. Saving Coulson with T.A.H.I.T.I. may have been Fury's best shot at shutting down T.A.H.I.T.I. and other operations that may be revealed in the future.

I agree. That'll explain why they gave him that memory (instead of a memory of him recovering in a hospital). I also think they infiltrated a S.W.O.R.D. facility. Any government or private security would negotiate with S.H.E.L.D. operatives (better to have them as friends then enemies).

 

[Reverend]

Am I crazy, or did that old bunker look like that Hydra base from the end of 'Captain America'? They did say it was an old WWII era facility, no?

For a second there I thought the vial contained a version of the super soldier serum, not the original but something derived from Banner or Blonsky, being green and all. I half expected Sky's eyes to turn white and her skin to go green.

As the identity of the alien...my first thought is that it's just some generic alien used for a plot device, but the way this show is going, it looks like just about everything is a reference to something. The Kree have blue skin do they not? I remember joking a while back about Sky's real name turning out to be Carol Danvers...maybe I wasn't so far off the mark?

ETA:

So, any speculation on what "T.A.H.I.T.I." may stand for? Two T's and two I's make it a bit tricky.
Theoretical Alien Hybrid Interception and Tactical Initiative?
Terrestrial Alien Homeland Intelligence and Tactical Initiative?

 

[Christopher]

Any government or private security would negotiate with S.H.E.L.D. operatives (better to have them as friends then enemies).

Again, we've already seen several episodes where government operatives have clashed with Coulson's team, and TV and movies in general have given us thousands of examples of stories in which rival top-secret government agencies, even within the same government, fought against each other. When you're a government operative tasked with protecting top-secret information or assets by any means necessary, you don't negotiate, you just shoot to kill. At least you do when you're an antagonist in a work of fiction, and sometimes even a protagonist.

I mean, really, looking at it from the guards' POV, they had reason to be cautious. They're protecting something of immense value and secrecy, so if an armed team that doesn't know the right countersign shows up claiming to be in medical need, it could easily be some enemy black-ops team trying to trick their way into your facility so they could shoot you dead and steal your asset and compromise your nation's security. This is basic spy-vs.-spy stuff, so I'm bewildered by all this talk about private property and trespassing and civil-law matters. That is totally the wrong paradigm for understanding what happened here.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I wasn't bothered by the legalities of who owns the facility and who shot first so much as I was bothered by the fact that Coulson's team has perfectly functional non-lethal weapons aboard The Bus that they've used against the worst of the worst bad guys and in far more dangerous situations where team members lives were also on the line, but for some reason when they decided to raid a probably friendly government facility they only brought normal guns. They still could have gone back to the plane for the non-lethal weapons after they saw that the guards weren't going to be cooperative at the door.

It just seems out of character to me that in situations where people might explode or where team members are at risk or they're facing known evil enemies they take every precaution to avoid taking a life, but when it comes to a couple of poor schlubs defending a government facility, they use lethal force.

Also, medical assistance or not, we're talking about a facility that has a possibly alien, definitely super-powered corpse in it and God knows what other medical Pandora's Boxes ready to unleash a catastrophic disease or something else on the world, so even if it's ethically wrong of them to deny medical help, what's one life versus a potentially world-changing threat or medical/technological development from their perspective? And that's just assuming they took Coulson's team at their word, which they would have no reason to, since it just looked like a heavily armed assault team in a military jet.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

You don't have health insurance and you engage in an armed assault on a private hospital, killing two security guards, to obtain some antibiotics.

I don't think either side will be convinced by each other at this point, but I don't think you're being fair to the characterization, which made clear that force was a last resort. It wasn't an armed assault, it was an announced entry that spent the whole time trying to avoid use of force until they were fired upon. It was armed because they expected to be fired upon. I don't think this necessarily changes whether it was justified or not (my view is that this doesn't particularly matter either way), but at least characterize it correctly.

 

[Reverend]

I don't get what the debate is about. A unscheduled group turns up at an ultra-secret location wanting and doesn't know the counter-sign. Do not let them in. End of discussion.

As for how poorly staffed it was: it's isolated and ULTRA-secret. Nobody goes there who doesn't know what's there. If someone turns up, they either fight them off, evac and scrub the place, or die trying and it blows up. Either way the facility is compromised.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

So, any speculation on what "T.A.H.I.T.I." may stand for? Two T's and two I's make it a bit tricky.
Theoretical Alien Hybrid Interception and Tactical Initiative?
Terrestrial Alien Homeland Intelligence and Tactical Initiative?

This Acronym Holds Inside Two I's
Two Armed Humans Inside, That's It

Yours sound nicely overcooked like the actual SHIELD acronym.

 

[Captain Craig]

The G.H. alien

What if they don't know his name/species and he's simply The Guest.
The initials tag him as the Guest House...guest.

Too simple?

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=9322426#post9322426

There is Genis-Vell, the son of Mar-Vell & Phyla-Vell.

I don't rule out Kree but not that particular connection IF a GotG tangent thread is being started. Seems a bit much but who knows. It would be a waste for this G.H. to be tied to the Vell line when the property of Captain Marvel is a potential rich vein to mine later. You don't just have him dead, cut in half for his introduction.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

This
Acronym
Here
Is
Totally
Irrelevant

 

[Mr. Adventure]

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag_AFraxj-4[/yt]
:x

 

[Mister Fandango]

I don't rule out Kree but not that particular connection IF a GotG tangent thread is being started. Seems a bit much but who knows. It would be a waste for this G.H. to be tied to the Vell line when the property of Captain Marvel is a potential rich vein to mine later. You don't just have him dead, cut in half for his introduction.

Who says he's dead?

One little drug being mined from his body -- which it shouldn't be producing if he were dead, mind you -- is completely restoring hearts, stomachs, and intestines. And now that he's buried under a mountain, there's very little chance the machine keeping him in stasis is operational, thus giving him the opportunity to regenerate and escape at some much later point.

And his name actually is Geheneris Hala'son.

 

[Captain Craig]

Healing is one thing; Regeneration another. The latter is not a power set he has according to that wiki article. His lower body is gone, if it were intact and he just needed to heal I'd be more prone to go with Geheneris then.

We'll all have a clearer picture in a few weeks. I'm just not feeling it that it's the Ultimate version of Captain Marvel.

 

[Mister Fandango]

Yes, healing and regeneration are separate things.

Healing doesn't repair shredded hearts, stomachs, or intestines to the point where they look brand new, let alone instantly. Regeneration does. And that's just from one of the drugs being mined from his body. One. And we clearly saw several others, too.

Also, the alien was almost definitely a Kree, which Mahr Vehl is, too. You can't dismiss him as being a possiblity just because Mahr Vehl doesn't traditionally have regeneration (or a healing factor) listed as a common power, especially when the article you mention doesn't give an exhaustive list, yet still admit that it's likely a Kree.

And, again, "G.H." aren't letters to be found anywhere in the word "Random Kree," yet they do show up in "Geheneris Hala'son," and right where you'd expect initials to be taken from.

 

[bbjeg]

I don't rule out Kree but not that particular connection IF a GotG tangent thread is being started. Seems a bit much but who knows. It would be a waste for this G.H. to be tied to the Vell line when the property of Captain Marvel is a potential rich vein to mine later. You don't just have him dead, cut in half for his introduction.

Who says he's dead?

One little drug being mined from his body -- which it shouldn't be producing if he were dead, mind you -- is completely restoring hearts, stomachs, and intestines. And now that he's buried under a mountain, there's very little chance the machine keeping him in stasis is operational, thus giving him the opportunity to regenerate and escape at some much later point.

And his name actually is Geheneris Hala'son.

I haven't been keeping up with Captain Marvel. What's his powers, could his blood heal, and could he get from under tons of rock (without the lower half of his body).

Edit: Well I could have just Wiki'd it. He could heal so in theory, his blood can heal, but with him being buried, does Marvel plan to not use him.

 

[Mister Fandango]

Yes, he had both superstrength and the ability to phase through matter. And since most folks agree that the alien is likely a Kree, and Captain Marvel is Kree, and it's clear that the alien has at least one super-healing/regeneration drug in his body, yes, he can apparently heal/regenerate at a significantly increased rate. I imagine it just depends on how long it takes his body to recover from the stasis its in, to regain its healing ability, and his ability to regain consciousness and figure out how to escape. Which shouldn't be any time soon (aka, whenever they decide to focus on him at some later point, either in the show or in a movie).

Edit: Actually, I just looked at the wiki article, and increased healing is one of his powers.

 

[sojourner]

Is it a Kree power, or a Captain Marvel power? This could just be a random Kree.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I don't rule out Kree but not that particular connection IF a GotG tangent thread is being started. Seems a bit much but who knows. It would be a waste for this G.H. to be tied to the Vell line when the property of Captain Marvel is a potential rich vein to mine later. You don't just have him dead, cut in half for his introduction.

Who says he's dead?

One little drug being mined from his body -- which it shouldn't be producing if he were dead, mind you -- is completely restoring hearts, stomachs, and intestines. And now that he's buried under a mountain, there's very little chance the machine keeping him in stasis is operational, thus giving him the opportunity to regenerate and escape at some much later point.

And his name actually is Geheneris Hala'son.

I haven't been keeping up with Captain Marvel. What's his powers, could his blood heal, and could he get from under tons of rock (without the lower half of his body).

Edit: Well I could have just Wiki'd it. He could heal so in theory, his blood can heal, but with him being buried, does Marvel plan to not use him.

I'm liking this theory, although I do agree that this likely forecloses his character (barring flashback). Certainly, if they have his character, he'll be a quite different person (Kree?). It's entirely possible to imagine him healing once the machines get cut off, but the trauma has got to be extreme.

On a side note, I'm thinking that individual Kree might be useable even if the Kree race is likely Fantastic Four. Particularly if a specific member is more associated with SHIELD.

 

[Yminale]

Sorry if this was asked before but are we sure this guy is Kree. In the Guardians of the Galaxy trailer they showed Korath the Pursuer and he certainly was not blue.

But there was a blue guy who took Peter Quill's Walkman.

Anyway my first thought, OMG SHIELD captured Doctor Manhattan.