Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

[sojourner]

Yep, neither side was in the right here. (at least without knowing what authority the guards had to use deadly force), but Coulson and friends were definitely in the less defend-able condition.

What if the intel had been wrong and this turned out to just be a warehouse for expensive art? "oh, we were just trying to save a girl's life, our bad. We good here?"

 

[Christopher]

Ummm, it was a private installation and they were security with legal authority to protect it.

I don't know where you're getting they had legal authority or where anything in there was legal.

Yeah, there's no basis for assuming this was a private facility; all we know is that it wasn't a SHIELD facility. It was clearly some kind of top-security government or military operation. I mean, they had an alien corpse in their basement. This is Men- in-Black stuff, not a private hospital.

I was wondering if the alien might be a Kree. Although since they originated in Fantastic Four, I'm not sure if the rights to them would be with Marvel or Fox. (They did have to use the Chitauri instead of the Skrull.)

Kree soldiers Ronan the Accuser and Korath the Pursuer are both in Guardians of the Galaxy.

Ah, good point. So it could be a Kree, and thus a GotG tie-in.

Yep, neither side was in the right here. (at least without knowing what authority the guards had to use deadly force), but Coulson and friends were definitely in the less defend-able condition.

What if the intel had been wrong and this turned out to just be a warehouse for expensive art? "oh, we were just trying to save a girl's life, our bad. We good here?"

Guards in a warehouse would not use code phrases and countersigns like that, or deny an urgent plea for medical attention just because someone couldn't give the proper countersign. And they wouldn't pre-emptively fire machine guns at people who were repeatedly saying "We're seeking medical aid" in eminently reasonable Clark-Greggian tones.

It makes no sense to say that Coulson's actions were less justifiable. They knew this was the place where Coulson was treated. They knew it was a medical facility, and they went there seeking medical help. When their desperate pleas for lifesaving aid were rejected, they broke in because they had no other option. And then they were fired upon quite aggressively by guards who ignored their continued pleas for medical aid, and only then, when they were in mortal danger themselves, did they defend themselves. They acted without malice and with a desire to preserve life. The guards, on the other hand, were willing to kill -- and deny medical aid to a dying person -- in order to preserve their secrets. I know whose priorities I have more sympathy for.

 

[propita]

Ummm, it was a private installation and they were security with legal authority to protect it. Coulson and team were trespassing, breaking and entering, destroying private property, and stealing. Killing the guards while committing criminal offenses is first degree murder (may vary depending on jurisdiction?) Setting legalities aside it was a case of willfully killing two people because you didn't want your friend to die. If they were security guards at a common hospital, would it be OK?

I don't know where you're getting they had legal authority or where anything in there was legal.

It's a little late for me to get into a big debate, so I'll raise a couple thoughts.

If you are on a boat and there's a storm about to destroy your boat. If you dock it at someone's dock and take shelter in their home, have you committed a crime? The answer is generally "no" through the defense of necessity.

If you break into a home to steal water when you would otherwise die of dehydration, is it a crime?

If you break into a home to steal water and trigger a shotgun trap the owner had set up, which shoots you in the face, has the owner committed a crime?

Finally, if you break into a home to steal water and the owner attacks you and, in the struggle, you end up killing him, has anyone or both committed a crime?

ETA: I'll throw in this one: A burglar enters your home. You somehow (through clairvoyance) know for a fact that he is only going to steal your TV and won't harm you. May you shoot him?

Ah....Torts class. I KNEW you were going to lead with that hypo.

 

[DarthPipes]

Let's not lose track of exactly what happened here. Coulson and team did not shoot their way in. They entered seeking help and encountered hostile fire.

They broke into someone else's property while heavily armed.
Shooting cameras and hacking security. At what point do you go by there words over their actions?

So, Now we know what happened to Dr. Manhattan after Watchmen.

Agreed. Coulson and his team trespassed on private property, broke in and murdered two men to save their special snowflake. Coulson might bitch about Shield but he and his team (and Garrett) proved they're not much better.

Coulson and his team have access to non-lethal weaponry (the night-night gun) and chose not to use it.

Speaking of special snowflakes, I still don't see why Coulson is so important that Fury "moved heaven and earth" to save him.

 

[Gryffindorian]

Very good episode. I liked Bill Paxton's appearance, though his character could have been developed better.

I wasn't familiar with Lorelei. So I looked her up. I initially thought she was the Enchantress. I'm excited to see Sif next week.

 

[Mister Fandango]

The G.H. alien

What if they don't know his name/species and he's simply The Guest.
The initials tag him as the Guest House...guest.

Too simple?

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=9322426#post9322426

 

[kitik]

Ummm, it was a private installation and they were security with legal authority to protect it.

Whoa now, not sure where you're getting any sort of legal authority from? There was nothing legal going on there. It was specifically stated to be not Shield. Whoever those two guards answered to, it wasn't any sort of legal government authority.

It seemed to be a facility designed specifically for medical experiments that were NOT legal, be it whatever questionable procedures were used on Coulson, or experimenting on still-alive (?) aliens. This was the definition of off the books and beyond the law.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Coulson and his team trespassed on private property

Whose private property was it?

 

[kitik]

Speaking of special snowflakes, I still don't see why Coulson is so important that Fury "moved heaven and earth" to save him.

I'm wondering if this very episode was part of the reason Fury saved Coulson. Perhaps Fury wanted to shut down some operations that he was not allowed to shut down, including tonight's. Maybe Fury set Coulson in motion knowing he'd eventually find/expose the truth about how he was brought back from death. Saving Coulson with T.A.H.I.T.I. may have been Fury's best shot at shutting down T.A.H.I.T.I. and other operations that may be revealed in the future.

 

[Mister Fandango]

Coulson and his team trespassed on private property

Whose private property was it?

I didn't know ignorance was a solid legal defense.

 

[kitik]

Coulson and his team trespassed on private property

Whose private property was it?

I didn't know ignorance was a solid legal defense.

Actually, didn't they know for a fact that it was NOT a legal facility?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Coulson and his team trespassed on private property

Whose private property was it?

I didn't know ignorance was a solid legal defense.

The purpose of the question wasn't for any legal defense, not that any would be needed anyway. The point is that it wasn't established whether it was private property or not.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What country was the base in?

 

[malfourmed]

Regarding Hawkeye. Keep in mind that, while Jeremy Renner's role in the movies so far has been limited, he's still a movie actor, not a television actor and would be difficult to get on the show.

Before he became big in movies Renner guest-starred on Angel, giving a memorable performance in the episode "Somnambulist" as one of Angel's sired.

It's not out of the question that Whedon might be able to call in a favor for a guest spot if the part is meaty, the schedules fit and the money's right. Or at least a Samuel L Jackson style cameo.

 

[kitik]

It's not out of the question that Whedon might be able to call in a favor for a guest spot if the part is meaty, the schedules fit and the money's right. Or at least a Samuel L Jackson style cameo.

Renner probably has some 5 or 6 picture contract signed with Marvel. If Marvel said that a little 2 day cameo on AOS could count as one of them, he'd probably do it if it could fit into his schedule.

 

[sojourner]

The facts are that:

We don't know who the guest house was run by or where it was located.

We don't know what affiliation it had with SHIELD.

Coulson and company showed up heavily armed with no sign of an injured party with them.

Coulson's team demonstrated a disregard for the occupants of the facility by first shooting the camera and then gaining entry after being unable to convince the occupants to let them in.

Regardless of what they said, Coulson's team looked like a freakin death squad breaking in.

I'm not in favor of "stand your ground" laws, but damn, those guards would have been acquitted.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

I like the comments of turning away someone asking for medical help like it's your neighbor knocking on your door and not someone landing a jumbo jet at an isolated secure location.

The security at that place was rather crazy though. They didn't notice the aforementioned jumbo jet until they knocked on the door? They had two guys with an M-16 and questionable tactics in charge of defending the whole facility and if that fails they blow the place sky high?

The G.H. alien

What if they don't know his name/species and he's simply The Guest.
The initials tag him as the Guest House...guest.

Too simple?

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?p=9322426#post9322426

Guardians Hype?

 

[Turtletrekker]

Forbes-- "'Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.' is about to become the show everyone wanted it to be."

 

[Alidar Jarok]

pretty sure those are all crimes.

I'd argue breaking into the home to steal water falls under necessity, same as the boat. And the shotgun trap and final example were included to show that you don't have the right to deadly force except to protect your own life (so someone stealing medical supplies who wouldn't otherwise cause harm can't be met with deadly force).

And since there was no medical assistance available, were the guards justified in thinking that Shield was lying about their reason for coming there?

Entirely possible. I don't think the scenes were meant to be free of all moral ambiguity. If they were, the guys defending the building would have been less sympathetic. In the end, it was two groups who are used to using deadly force doing what they needed to do. I don't think either side had the law on their side.

Ah....Torts class. I KNEW you were going to lead with that hypo.

I thought of actually using my Torts Professor's hypos. But I decided to avoid going with the old lady being pushed off a cliff to land on you below and you can't move but do have a laser gun with which you can vaporize her.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

Ummm, it was a private installation and they were security with legal authority to protect it. Coulson and team were trespassing, breaking and entering, destroying private property, and stealing. Killing the guards while committing criminal offenses is first degree murder (may vary depending on jurisdiction?) Setting legalities aside it was a case of willfully killing two people because you didn't want your friend to die. If they were security guards at a common hospital, would it be OK?

I don't know where you're getting they had legal authority or where anything in there was legal.

It's a little late for me to get into a big debate, so I'll raise a couple thoughts.

If you are on a boat and there's a storm about to destroy your boat. If you dock it at someone's dock and take shelter in their home, have you committed a crime? The answer is generally "no" through the defense of necessity.

If you break into a home to steal water when you would otherwise die of dehydration, is it a crime?

If you break into a home to steal water and trigger a shotgun trap the owner had set up, which shoots you in the face, has the owner committed a crime?

Finally, if you break into a home to steal water and the owner attacks you and, in the struggle, you end up killing him, has anyone or both committed a crime?

ETA: I'll throw in this one: A burglar enters your home. You somehow (through clairvoyance) know for a fact that he is only going to steal your TV and won't harm you. May you shoot him?

You don't have health insurance and you engage in an armed assault on a private hospital, killing two security guards, to obtain some antibiotics.