Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

[Captain Qwert Jr]

So what of it? Have you pointed this out before page 200? What's different this time?

You brought it up, no, and you brought it up.

It strikes me that you're essentially complaining that the characters are consistently portrayed in a way that makes sense for the kind of show it is.

I'm not being snarky or contrary.
Coulson's actions were appalling on every level. Unequivocally beyond the pale. No longer in a grey area.
Unless you're argument is "well of course, This is a show about evil people doing evil things. What the hell have you been watching?" I dont know where your coming from.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

Really, I'm confused by this whole line of discussion. AoS isn't a cop show, it's a spy show. And spy characters like James Bond or Jason Bourne or Sydney Bristow or whoever are constantly breaking into other people's facilities and getting into gun battles with them and stealing things from them, and I don't see people getting into arguments about the legalities of what they're doing, because it's a generally accepted conceit of the spy genre that the characters are pretty much above the law and follow their own set of rules because they have national security or the fate of the free world as an excuse. I mean, isn't that part of the appeal of the genre for a lot of people -- that it's about characters who operate in moral gray areas? So why is it so shocking when these characters operate in a similar gray area? Is it just because their mission here was more personal, about saving Skye's life and getting answers for Coulson, rather than some kind of national-security or following-orders thing? If anything, that makes me more sympathetic to them, not less.

No. James Bond has a licence to kill, but he does not break into a hospital, kill the security guards, steal antibiotics, set the place on fire, and destroy irreplaceable research in order to give the drugs to his friend. This has never been a plotline and never been attempted to be justified in his stories.

I'm not entirely familiar with other spy heroes' entire libraries, but I am not aware of anything comparable to what has been portrayed in this SHIELD episode.

 

[DEWLine]

Does anyone else here remember ExTechOp?

T.A.H.I.T.I. puts me in mind of that branch of Earth-616 SHIELD.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

Did those two security guards they murdered have families who loved them?

The value of someone's life isn't a function of whether they have a family. Murder is a legal term, and it's an open question whether they were murdered.

I should have been more explicit in my earlier comment since it seems to have flown over numerous heads.

In the scene in the hospital, Coulson remarks to the nurse/doctor that "We are her family." The explicit message here is that the team is going to save Skye due to emotional commitment. No other reason is forthcoming. There is no other reason given for them to ignore explicit orders, break security protocols, break and enter a secure private premises, destroy private property, murder security guards, and destroy irreplaceable research.

If their emotional attachment to Skye justifies their act of murder, then what do the security guards' families emotional attachment justify?

There is no justifiable legal or ethical reason to commit such crimes for an unknown chance that an unknown substance which may not be on the premises would possibly heal someone with 0% chance to survive.

The only possible justification is not legal, not ethical, but it would be emotional. "We love her so much, we had no other choice."

If we are going by emotional reasoning, then the families of those guards have just as many rights here as Coulson and team do.

In saying all this, I respect shows that cross the borderlines into ethical grey areas. If the show follows up on Coulson's legal and ethical breach, then I think the story is worthwhile.

What I don't respect is the black and white thinking that will justify Coulson's decisions as OK because it is a spy show.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Did those two security guards they murdered have families who loved them?

The value of someone's life isn't a function of whether they have a family. Murder is a legal term, and it's an open question whether they were murdered.

I should have been more explicit in my earlier comment since it seems to have flown over numerous heads.

In the scene in the hospital, Coulson remarks to the nurse/doctor that "We are her family." The explicit message here is that the team is going to save Skye due to emotional commitment. No other reason is forthcoming. There is no other reason given for them to ignore explicit orders, break security protocols, break and enter a secure private premises, destroy private property, murder security guards, and destroy irreplaceable research.

If their emotional attachment to Skye justifies their act of murder, then what do the security guards' families emotional attachment justify?

There is no justifiable legal or ethical reason to commit such crimes for an unknown chance that an unknown substance which may not be on the premises would possibly heal someone with 0% chance to survive.

The only possible justification is not legal, not ethical, but it would be emotional. "We love her so much, we had no other choice."

If we are going by emotional reasoning, then the families of those guards have just as many rights here as Coulson and team do.

In saying all this, I respect shows that cross the borderlines into ethical grey areas. If the show follows up on Coulson's legal and ethical breach, then I think the story is worthwhile.

What I don't respect is the black and white thinking that will justify Coulson's decisions as OK because it is a spy show.

Just to clarify, you all can quote my posts and comment on them all you want, but like I said, I'm done discussing this, at least until future episodes come out on the topic. We lack necessary facts and further conversation is rather pointless.

I really can't believe this is still being discussed. It's so pedantic and a total non-issue.

Yeah, I'm done discussing it, now, at least until it's addressed in a future episode.

 

[DarthPipes]

They were forcibly entering and clearly armed to the teeth. That trumps anything motive-wise they may have. Not to mention that they definitely shot first in the process of breaking in, proving that they were hostile from the very beginning. They were also given ample opportunity to back off and leave -- the guards didn't shoot until they actually breached their immediate location. Coulson also knew, or at least strongly suspected, that they were armed and that they were prepared to defend their position, yet he insisted on continuing to forcibly enter.

Oh, and they also offered no actual proof whatsoever that they did have someone who was injured and in need of medical care (not that it changes anything; see previous post on the subject). Shouting something while heavily armed and while in the process of breaking and entering doesn't make it a fact, nor would any sensible jury agree that it does.

Good luck trying to prove any sort of innocence there. Their only hope is that the location was a criminal location, and even then it's, at best, questionable since they had neither probable cause nor a warrant. The closest thing Coulson had to evidence was a top secret document out of even his clearance level, which in and of itself is a massive crime on his part.

Which, incidentally, is proof that Coulson isn't all-knowing in regards to such matters. Not by a long shot.

Well said.

Add to the fact too that this was an unauthorized mission that Coulson and his team participated in while they were disobeying orders to hand over Quinn to Shield. They can't hide behind national security on this one...it was a personal mission.

Also, the team has access to non-lethal weaponry like the "night-night" guns. They've used them against scummy bad guys in the past yet refused to use them here. That makes what they did even worse.

 

[Christopher]

Given their role in spearheading the defence against the Chitauri, I'd argue 50 % "world police", 30 % "planetary armed forces" and 20 % spies.

Except this show isn't about defending against the Chitauri. Sure, in-universe, SHIELD has those functions, but I'm talking about the semantics of this television series, which are the semantics of a spy show that just happens to be set in a universe with superheroes in it. The characters behave like spies. They go to places they're not supposed to be, they break into them in order to find stuff out or take things, and if they're found out and attacked, they fight back. This is what characters in spy shows do, and it's what the characters in this show have done multiple times before. Heck, in just the previous episode, they broke into Ian Quinn's private residence, beat him and his guards up, and kidnapped him. That was surely illegal, yet nobody seems to have had a problem with it then.

Coulson's actions were appalling on every level. Unequivocally beyond the pale. No longer in a grey area.
Unless you're argument is "well of course, This is a show about evil people doing evil things. What the hell have you been watching?" I dont know where your coming from.

He was acting to save the life of a person he was responsible for. He tried to convince the Guest House staff to help him save her the way they had saved him, and only returned fire as a last resort. He tried to get medical help for the wounded guard. Arguably he did the wrong thing, but his motivation was to save lives. That's not "evil people doing evil things," it's well-intentioned people doing the wrong thing out of desperation, and trying to minimize the wrongs as much as they could.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

Just to clarify, you all can quote my posts and comment on them all you want, but like I said, I'm done discussing this, at least until future episodes come out on the topic. We lack necessary facts and further conversation is rather pointless.

All conversation on the internet about tv shows is pointless. I answered your comment. If you don't want answers, don't comment.

 

[Captain Craig]

And my point is that both apply until proven that they don't.

Well since the show is highly, highly unlikely to prove or disprove it everyone is wasting keystrokes....but knock yourselves out.

Join everyone next week.

 

[Mister Fandango]

He was acting to save the life of a person he was responsible for. He tried to convince the Guest House staff to help him save her the way they had saved him, and only returned fire as a last resort. He tried to get medical help for the wounded guard. Arguably he did the wrong thing, but his motivation was to save lives. That's not "evil people doing evil things," it's well-intentioned people doing the wrong thing out of desperation, and trying to minimize the wrongs as much as they could.

I guess that's why they went down there with all the non-lethal weapons they constantly show they have access to and use in far more hostile situations than this originally was. They stepped off the Bus ready to kill.

You can try to claim anything you want, but that doesn't make your claims right. Coulson and his team were wrong. Dead wrong. And they deserve to be punished for what they did. "I was trying to save a criminal's life!" isn't an excuse, especially when you murder two people actually doing their job while doing so.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Just to clarify, you all can quote my posts and comment on them all you want, but like I said, I'm done discussing this, at least until future episodes come out on the topic. We lack necessary facts and further conversation is rather pointless.

All conversation on the internet about tv shows is pointless. I answered your comment. If you don't want answers, don't comment.

Feel free to comment all you want, I didn't say you couldn't.

 

[Yminale]

Heck, in just the previous episode, they broke into Ian Quinn's private residence, beat him and his guards up, and kidnapped him. That was surely illegal, yet nobody seems to have had a problem with it then.

But they were sanctioned to do so and isn't Quinn a wanted criminal (hence his private island).

He was acting to save the life of a person he was responsible for. He tried to convince the Guest House staff to help him save her the way they had saved him, and only returned fire as a last resort.

I have to agree with naysayer. You don't justify immoral actions by saying your sorry. It hardly matter anymore. Since 9/11 we don't expect our heroes to follow the rules, only to punish the "evil doers" and to do what is necessary.

Welcome to post 9/11 where you can sodomize children in the name of "War on Terror" and kill their brothers and sisters with drone attacks.

 

[Yminale]

I guess that's why they went down there with all the non-lethal weapons they constantly show they have access to and use in far more hostile situations than this originally was. They stepped off the Bus ready to kill.

The non-lethal option requires time and planning which they didn't have plus they didn't know what opposition they faced. For all the team knew they could have been facing an entire division of undead supersoldiers.

You can try to claim anything you want, but that doesn't make your claims right. Coulson and his team were wrong. Dead wrong. And they deserve to be punished for what they did.

But, But, they feel really really bad about what they did so now it's okay. Honestly this is a TV show. Watch shows like "Alias" or "Nikita". They do stuff like this all the time.

 

[Christopher]

But they were sanctioned to do so and isn't Quinn a wanted criminal (hence his private island).

To the second point, we have no idea about the legality of what these guys were doing. People who are doing good and legal things generally don't rig their headquarters to explode to avoid discovery of their secrets.

To the first point, I am bewildered by the premise that "They were acting under orders" somehow makes their actions more sympathetic than "They were desperately trying to save the life of a young woman they care for."

I mean, good grief, in The Search for Spock, Admiral Kirk and his crew hijacked two starships and killed nearly the entire crew of one of them in order to save Spock's life on Genesis -- and heck, they didn't even know he was alive, they were just going there to recover his body for some inadequately explained reason theoretically connected to getting Spock's katra out of McCoy's head. But they committed serious crimes and took lives in order to help one person (or two, since McCoy's sanity was in danger). And I've never heard anyone condemn them as evil murderers for doing that. I genuinely do not see why this is so completely different from that.

I have to agree with naysayer. You don't justify immoral actions by saying your sorry.

I'm not saying they didn't do anything questionable. I'm saying I'm shocked by the complete lack of sympathy, the histrionic rhetoric about "murder" and "evil." I don't understand where that's coming from. Coulson did what he did to save Skye's life. And remember, it's basically his fault that she got shot in the first place, that she ended up going in alone without backup. He was guilty about that and willing to go to any lengths to fix it, to save Skye from having to die because of his mistake. However questionable his actions may have been, surely his motives are clear, comprehensible, and sympathetic.

 

[Corran Horn]

So how many people died that Skye might live? I didn't really count.

 

[Guy Gardener]

There were only two Human Beings at the Guest House.

Although only the half a blue guy had to actually die to source the miracle drug that "might" save her.

 

[Yminale]

So how many people died that Skye might live? I didn't really count.

If it makes you feel better, those guys probably downloaded child porn so they deserved to die.

 

[Turtletrekker]

^They also would talk and send texts during movies.

 

[DarthPipes]

But they were sanctioned to do so and isn't Quinn a wanted criminal (hence his private island).

To the second point, we have no idea about the legality of what these guys were doing. People who are doing good and legal things generally don't rig their headquarters to explode to avoid discovery of their secrets.

To the first point, I am bewildered by the premise that "They were acting under orders" somehow makes their actions more sympathetic than "They were desperately trying to save the life of a young woman they care for."

I mean, good grief, in The Search for Spock, Admiral Kirk and his crew hijacked two starships and killed nearly the entire crew of one of them in order to save Spock's life on Genesis -- and heck, they didn't even know he was alive, they were just going there to recover his body for some inadequately explained reason theoretically connected to getting Spock's katra out of McCoy's head. But they committed serious crimes and took lives in order to help one person (or two, since McCoy's sanity was in danger). And I've never heard anyone condemn them as evil murderers for doing that. I genuinely do not see why this is so completely different from that.

I have to agree with naysayer. You don't justify immoral actions by saying your sorry.

I'm not saying they didn't do anything questionable. I'm saying I'm shocked by the complete lack of sympathy, the histrionic rhetoric about "murder" and "evil." I don't understand where that's coming from. Coulson did what he did to save Skye's life. And remember, it's basically his fault that she got shot in the first place, that she ended up going in alone without backup. He was guilty about that and willing to go to any lengths to fix it, to save Skye from having to die because of his mistake. However questionable his actions may have been, surely his motives are clear, comprehensible, and sympathetic.

They took the lives of a renegade Klingon crew that had no business being on Genesis and was about to open fire on them. Granted, Kirk and company had no business being there either by order of the Federation Council and Starfleet but the Klingons sure as hell had no business being there. And by that point they probably realized that the Klingons had destroyed the Grissom.

I understand Coulson wanting to save the life of one of his team but that doesn't justify him and the rest of his team murdering others to do that. The fact that they didn't use non-lethal weapons makes it even worse.

 

[Yminale]

To the second point, we have no idea about the legality of what these guys were doing. People who are doing good and legal things generally don't rig their headquarters to explode to avoid discovery of their secrets.

Actually the CDC research facility in Atlanta is rigged to explode in case of a containment breach and these people are doing legitimate research. I believe the US Army biological warfare laboratories in Fort Detrick Maryland were also rigged to explode.

To the first point, I am bewildered by the premise that "They were acting under orders" somehow makes their actions more sympathetic than "They were desperately trying to save the life of a young woman they care for."

I wasn't arguing the morality of their actions, just that they had official sanction hence wouldn't be necessarily punished for their actions.

But they committed serious crimes and took lives in order to help one person (or two, since McCoy's sanity was in danger). And I've never heard anyone condemn them as evil murderers for doing that. I genuinely do not see why this is so completely different from that.

They didn't willfully murder anyone and the Klingons were the ones who escalated situation.

I'm not saying they didn't do anything questionable. I'm saying I'm shocked by the complete lack of sympathy, the histrionic rhetoric about "murder" and "evil."

Few people liked Skye so they can't sympathize. Like it or not morality is contextual.

However questionable his actions may have been, surely his motives are clear, comprehensible, and sympathetic.

"The road to Hell is paved with good intentions..."