Agents of SHIELD. Season 1 Discussion Thread

[Guy Gardener]

the Bus is an independant second army of every country signed up to S.H.I.E.L.D..

The Bus is also an embassy for every country signed up to S.H.I.E.L.D..

It has the right to enforce domestic law in every country signed up to S.H.I.E.L.D..

It has the right to enforce international law in every country signed up to S.H.I.E.L.D..

It also has the limited rights to be above the law of any country it is in because it is an Embassy of every other country signed up to S.H.I.E.L.D..

The Bus also has the soso ability to declare war on any country by any country signed up to S.H.I.E.L.D. which means that RISK is not allowed to be played on the Bus since any delcaration of invasion in that game is technnically binding in the real world if viewed/heard out of context.

If any of this is untrue, then S.H.I.E.L.D. could not get it's job done and might as well quit.

 

[Christopher]

Really, I'm confused by this whole line of discussion. AoS isn't a cop show, it's a spy show. And spy characters like James Bond or Jason Bourne or Sydney Bristow or whoever are constantly breaking into other people's facilities and getting into gun battles with them and stealing things from them, and I don't see people getting into arguments about the legalities of what they're doing, because it's a generally accepted conceit of the spy genre that the characters are pretty much above the law and follow their own set of rules because they have national security or the fate of the free world as an excuse. I mean, isn't that part of the appeal of the genre for a lot of people -- that it's about characters who operate in moral gray areas? So why is it so shocking when these characters operate in a similar gray area? Is it just because their mission here was more personal, about saving Skye's life and getting answers for Coulson, rather than some kind of national-security or following-orders thing? If anything, that makes me more sympathetic to them, not less.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

People are throwing around terms like trespass and murder, and they don't even know if they legally apply. That's my point.

You have it backwards.

Story-wise, You have to lay down a crap-load of ground work before you can declare the laws don't apply here. And I mean a huge english system measurement crap-load, not a puny metric system crap-load. They didn't even try.

As presented, Legally, morally, and ethically there is no ambiguity here.

No, actually, that's not so. The Guest House was established as being located at a collapsed WWII bunker, which as such almost certainly does not exist on American soil. Since there's no reason to believe that American law applies in the territory that the bunker is in, it's incumbent on those who claim that laws apply to establish jurisdiction.

Besides, Christopher's point about agents in shows like this presumably being above the law, as a part of the premise, is quite right. We don't know what kind of immunity from legal prosecution these agents have, but their status as SHIELD agents likely grants them massive discretionary leeway, so that terms like trespass and murder don't even apply to them anywhere on the Earth, at least under a wide variety of circumstances.

Once again: Ignorance is not a legal defense. And yes, that is what you're claiming. Complete and utter ignorance.

No, it's not what I'm claiming. That's sticking words into my mouth, and I'd like you not to do that. Thanks.

You can look high and low in my posts, and you won't find anywhere where I've said that the decision to go after treatment for Skye was right or wrong. Heck, even Coulson tried to stop the injection, once he'd seen where the stuff was coming from.

All I've said is that given their decision to go for treatment, the SHIELD team was not wrong to behave as they did and that the guards were treated fairly.

As far as I'm concerned, the entire question of whether the SHIELD team was in the wrong revolves around whether they were right to make it their mission to obtain GH-325 in time to help Skye. I've not posted my position on that issue.

Under the circumstances, if it were someone I loved there on her death bed, I'd likely consider the same course of action. I'd be skeptical of anyone with the power to do otherwise who'd claim that they'd simply let their loved one die.

There're still a lot of unknowns, such as whose facility it was and what they were really trying to do with it, to decide whether their guards were right to use force to keep people out. There're also unknowns regarding whether the risks of the drug are justified. We'll mostly find out in future episodes. That will help settle the question of whether the SHIELD team was right or wrong.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Coulson has to explain every ounce of fuel and every bullet used to an accountant who reports to some one who (skip 20 steps) reports to Fury, who reports to the world council.

Bond and Bourne have black budgets with no conventional oversight, but if they frakk up and make a spectacle, they don't get an enquiry, they three sharp to the back of the head.

S.H.I.E.L.D. are 80 percent world police and 20 percent spies.

If every government in the world is a member of S.H.I.E.L.D., and pays for S.H.I.E.L.D.and can by extension give S.H.I.E.L.D. missions, exactly who is S.H.I.E.L.D. spying on for who if every government putting bank towards S.H.I.E.L.D.'s operating costs would toss their toys if it was found that they are paying S.H.I.E.L.D. to spy on themselves?

John F. Kennedy's last thoughts "I should have slashed the C.I.A.'s operating budget to shit until they couldn't afford the bullets to shoot me, those fucking pricks."

 

[bbjeg]

I'm on S.H.I.E.L.D.'s side. If any world know top agency went knocking on some private companies doors, not answering would look suspicious. Everyone knows about S.H.I.E.L.D. after New York, if they're busting in, you know you're doing something wrong.

 

[Reverend]

I really can't believe this is still being discussed. It's so pedantic and a total non-issue.

I have this feeling that DC and Marvel will conspire to double team us cock blocking each other by releasing the Submariner and Aquaman movies almost right on top of each other if not the same opening weekend.

...and they both flop because who cares about a pair of soggy Conan ripoffs who talk to fish...?

 

[Mister Fandango]

No, it's not what I'm claiming. That's sticking words into my mouth, and I'd like you not to do that. Thanks.

Just because you don't know what you're saying doesn't mean you're not actually saying it.

You can look high and low in my posts, and you won't find anywhere where I've said that the decision to go after treatment for Skye was right or wrong. Heck, even Coulson tried to stop the injection, once he'd seen where the stuff was coming from.

All I've said is that given their decision to go for treatment, the SHIELD team was not wrong to behave as they did and that the guards were treated fairly.

Wrong. Completely and utterly wrong. On every conceivable level, that is wrong. And the reasons you've cited about why it isn't wrong is where the ignorance is coming from.

As far as I'm concerned, the entire question of whether the SHIELD team was in the wrong revolves around whether they were right to make it their mission to obtain GH-325 in time to help Skye. I've not posted my position on that issue.

You just did. In the previous quote. Jesus Christ.

Under the circumstances, if it were someone I loved there on her death bed, I'd likely consider the same course of action. I'd be skeptical of anyone with the power to do otherwise who'd claim that they'd simply let their loved one die.

And you think that makes it right, let alone legal? Guess what: The world doesn't revolve around you or your loved ones.

There're still a lot of unknowns, such as whose facility it was and what they were really trying to do with it, to decide whether their guards were right to use force to keep people out. There're also unknowns regarding whether the risks of the drug are justified. We'll mostly find out in future episodes. That will help settle the question of whether the SHIELD team was right or wrong.

Until those unknowns are know, Coulson and his team were in the wrong. There's no question about it whatsoever, and claiming that because they were ignorant about who owned the facility they were justified in doing whatever the fuck they wanted is absolutely absurd. Mindboggling absurd. As in "what world are you living in, cause it sure as hell isn't this one" absurd.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I really can't believe this is still being discussed. It's so pedantic and a total non-issue.

Yeah, I'm done discussing it, now, at least until it's addressed in a future episode.

 

[Captain Qwert Jr]

Really, I'm confused by this whole line of discussion. AoS isn't a cop show, it's a spy show. And spy characters like James Bond or Jason Bourne or Sydney Bristow or whoever are constantly breaking into other people's facilities and getting into gun battles with them and stealing things from them, and I don't see people getting into arguments about the legalities of what they're doing, because it's a generally accepted conceit of the spy genre that the characters are pretty much above the law and follow their own set of rules because they have national security or the fate of the free world as an excuse. I mean, isn't that part of the appeal of the genre for a lot of people -- that it's about characters who operate in moral gray areas? So why is it so shocking when these characters operate in a similar gray area? Is it just because their mission here was more personal, about saving Skye's life and getting answers for Coulson, rather than some kind of national-security or following-orders thing? If anything, that makes me more sympathetic to them, not less.

Because in order to buy into that conceit the story has to stay within certain parameters. Shades of Grey does not mean, as so many writers seem to think it does, that every evil action taken by the so-called hero is justified because he's the designated protagonist.

Coulson murdered two people because he thought (not even confirmed, he just thought it) they were guarding something that might save one runs right out of this grey area and into the black area of general shitty-ness.

 

[Christopher]

I still dispute "murdered." They shot first! He told them four or five times that he was there for medical help! Only by a legal technicality would it constitute felony murder, because it was death caused in the commission of an illegal act (breaking and entering). It's absolutely obvious that he did not want to kill those people, that they left him no choice because they were trying to kill him and the people he was responsible for. And if he died, Skye died. Legally it may not have been self-defense since they instigated the break-in, but ethically it's a very different matter. I can't believe a jury wouldn't recognize the extenuating circumstances in a case like that.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm on S.H.I.E.L.D.'s side. If any world know top agency went knocking on some private companies doors, not answering would look suspicious. Everyone knows about S.H.I.E.L.D. after New York, if they're busting in, you know you're doing something wrong.

Recently the FBI spearheaded (Two guys pointing and shouting.) an assault on the "compound" belonging to megaupload founder Kim Dotcom on New Zealand soil and then dragged him to local jail awaiting deportation to the states and a secret prison, but the legality of the FBI telling the local police to enforce American Law on a "permanent resident of New Zealand" in New Zealand has created 2 years worth of a shit storm where nothing has happened, and Kim has been on bail since a month after they kicked his door in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Dotcom#Dotcom.27s_arrest_in_New_Zealand

 

[Mister Fandango]

They were forcibly entering and clearly armed to the teeth. That trumps anything motive-wise they may have. Not to mention that they definitely shot first in the process of breaking in, proving that they were hostile from the very beginning. They were also given ample opportunity to back off and leave -- the guards didn't shoot until they actually breached their immediate location. Coulson also knew, or at least strongly suspected, that they were armed and that they were prepared to defend their position, yet he insisted on continuing to forcibly enter.

Oh, and they also offered no actual proof whatsoever that they did have someone who was injured and in need of medical care (not that it changes anything; see previous post on the subject). Shouting something while heavily armed and while in the process of breaking and entering doesn't make it a fact, nor would any sensible jury agree that it does.

Good luck trying to prove any sort of innocence there. Their only hope is that the location was a criminal location, and even then it's, at best, questionable since they had neither probable cause nor a warrant. The closest thing Coulson had to evidence was a top secret document out of even his clearance level, which in and of itself is a massive crime on his part.

Which, incidentally, is proof that Coulson isn't all-knowing in regards to such matters. Not by a long shot.

 

[bbjeg]

I'm on S.H.I.E.L.D.'s side. If any world know top agency went knocking on some private companies doors, not answering would look suspicious. Everyone knows about S.H.I.E.L.D. after New York, if they're busting in, you know you're doing something wrong.

Recently the FBI spearheaded (Two guys pointing and shouting.) an assault on the "compound" belonging to megaupload founder Kim Dotcom on New Zealand soil and then dragged him to local jail awaiting deportation to the states and a secret prison, but the legality of the FBI telling the local police to enforce American Law on a "permanent resident of New Zealand" in New Zealand has created 2 years worth of a shit storm where nothing has happened, and Kim has been on bail since a month after they kicked his door in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Dotcom#Dotcom.27s_arrest_in_New_Zealand

The FBI aren't the equivalent of S.H.I.E.L.D., it'll be more like the U.N.'s secret service after saving the world. If someone like that knocks, you answer.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The important thing is that the FBI interrupted my downloads and frakked up my morning as I was wondering what the hell was wrong with my internet connection becuase all these movies I had cued up were failing.

Even if everything was above board, which it wasn't, it felt like a literal invasion.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Ignorance. Is. Not. A. Legal. Defense.

Ignorance of fact can absolutely be a legal defense depending on the circumstances. Really, this issue is tangential at best, but that's an incorrect statement of the law.

Because in order to buy into that conceit the story has to stay within certain parameters. Shades of Grey does not mean, as so many writers seem to think it does, that every evil action taken by the so-called hero is justified because he's the designated protagonist.

SHIELD explicitly does illegal things every episode. Under American law, the treatment of Ian Quinn was illegal as well, but I haven't seen anyone so much as comment on that.

 

[Captain Qwert Jr]

Because in order to buy into that conceit the story has to stay within certain parameters. Shades of Grey does not mean, as so many writers seem to think it does, that every evil action taken by the so-called hero is justified because he's the designated protagonist.

SHIELD explicitly does illegal things every episode. Under American law, the treatment of Ian Quinn was illegal as well, but I haven't seen anyone so much as comment on that.

OK, that's illegal, too.

Hooray! we agree

 

[Alidar Jarok]

So what of it? Have you pointed this out before page 200? What's different this time?

It strikes me that you're essentially complaining that the characters are consistently portrayed in a way that makes sense for the kind of show it is.

 

[Guy Gardener]

S.H.I.E.L.D. is not an American institution answerable to American laws, expectations or conventions.

They told Ian that he had no rights.

If he literally had zero rights, then they would have been allowed to torture and murder him, which is why May wasn't in any trouble for beating Quinn, which is an extension of the Bus being an Embassy, although they'd have more freedom if the bus was declared international waters (space?) and then no laws applied on that plane, or any other S.H.I.E.L.D. installation in the world other than S.H.I.E.L.D. internal policy.

What radius past the Busses hull extends this law void?

a hundred meters?

2 miles?

200 miles?

That's how the international says it works. Plant a flag in an unclaimed territory and 200 miles in every direction of that flag belongs to you.

The trouble of course is that these days everything is claimed except international waters, so you're building a derrick or a pontoon island if you want to start a kingdom.

Has anyone tied claiming that Garbage Vortex and building on it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch

 

[DEWLine]

Coulson has to explain every ounce of fuel and every bullet used to an accountant who reports to some one who (skip 20 steps) reports to Fury, who reports to the world [security] council.

S.H.I.E.L.D. are 80 percent world police and 20 percent spies.

Given their role in spearheading the defence against the Chitauri, I'd argue 50 % "world police", 30 % "planetary armed forces" and 20 % spies.

Otherwise, you and Christopher are on target here.

 

[DEWLine]

SHIELD's role really is a mixture of jobs. They never know from one day to the next to what degree they'll have to play cop, and/or spy and/or soldier.

Not unlike Starfleet that way.