What Amazes Me

[Pauln6]

It's not as if the Narada will be able to fire off weapons - the gravity of the singularity would draw all their fire back to them! Lets not forget that the Enterprise, which was further away from the black hole, was unable to move even at maximum power - you can't tell me that their sensors were unable to tell them that? It's elemetary physics. That kind of gravity is almost certainly going to interfere with transporter signals too.

I agree that the ship was potentially a threat if it survived another trip through a wormhole but I would have preferred it if the dialogue reflected this rather than a revenge culture.

 

[Therin of Andor]

it saddens me that this Abramsverse version of Trek will be what any new Trek fans see for the first time.

People said that to me in 1980, because I knew only ST:TMP and not the glory days of TOS.

And you know what? I'm still here in fandom, still love ST:TMP - and TOS (finally caught them all), TNG, most of DS9, VOY and ENT and JJ's ST movie - and the fans who said I'd never make it as a ST fan are long gone, having walked away from ST fandom in anger, during the media frenzy that was the approach to the premiere of ST IV. Because they felt ST IV was ST "dumbed down for the masses".

 

[JarodRussell]

Unbel1ever: Why does he fire on the Narada after Nero refuses his help and risks his ship and crew by remaining there ?

BobOrci: He can’t risk Nero traveling through time again.

Why would he care? Orci himself stated many times that his time travel only creates parallel universes. So from Kirk's perspective, Nero would be simply gone.

 

[Jeyl]

Unbel1ever: Why does he fire on the Narada after Nero refuses his help and risks his ship and crew by remaining there ?

BobOrci: He can’t risk Nero traveling through time again.

Than why all the "Your ship is compromised. Too close to the singularity to survive without assistance" bullsh**? Kirk states Nero and his ship won't survive, and Nero pretty much tells him that he would rather die there and now than get help from him. Plus if Nero's crew new they were going to survive, why were they all fleeing in a panic?

 

[Pauln6]

Unbel1ever: Why does he fire on the Narada after Nero refuses his help and risks his ship and crew by remaining there ?

BobOrci: He can’t risk Nero traveling through time again.

Than why all the "Your ship is compromised. Too close to the singularity to survive without assistance" bullsh**? Kirk states Nero and his ship won't survive, and Nero pretty much tells him that he would rather die there and now than get help from him. Plus if Nero's crew new they were going to survive, why were they all fleeing in a panic?

Precisely. If you want to justify the execution as necessary, why put in dialogue that suggests the opposite? For me the movie could have been improved drastically if the dialogue had just been a bit smarter in a few key places.

 

[RookieBatman]

it saddens me that this Abramsverse version of Trek will be what any new Trek fans see for the first time.

People said that to me in 1980, because I knew only ST:TMP and not the glory days of TOS.

And you know what? I'm still here in fandom, still love ST:TMP - and TOS (finally caught them all), TNG, most of DS9, VOY and ENT and JJ's ST movie - and the fans who said I'd never make it as a ST fan are long gone, having walked away from ST fandom in anger, during the media frenzy that was the approach to the premiere of ST IV. Because they felt ST IV was ST "dumbed down for the masses".

Yeah, I had a friend who watched the movie having never seen any Trek before, and then expressed interest in watching the series. Not sure if he ever ended up doing so, or if he did, whether he thought it was boring, but it's still something.

But the fact is, whatever the newest iteration of Trek had been, it still would've been something drastically different from TOS, and it still would've been a product of its time and culture, just as TOS was. The reason that TOS was so wildly popular in its day was that it spoke to things that people of the time cared about and could relate to. Whether we agree with the worldviews depicted in the movie or not, they do seem to be a fairly adequate reflection of today's culture (which I find unfortunate, but YMMV). The point is that however Trek had been reborn, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been something that was a whole lot like TOS.

That's why we have the DVDs.

 

[Set Harth]

Than why all the "Your ship is compromised. Too close to the singularity to survive without assistance" bullsh**? Kirk states Nero and his ship won't survive

I can say the word "compromise" too, it doesn't make me an expert on 24th-century Romulan technology any more than it does Kirk.

Plus if Nero's crew new they were going to survive, why were they all fleeing in a panic?

I don't think the word "risk" connotes certainty. Furthermore, why "flee" at all if death is clearly inevitable?

 

[Pauln6]

The uncertainty in the dialogue just serves as evidence that it was a bit shoddy. Realistically, what assistance could Enterprise have offered? If warp engines at max couldn't escape the gravity what could a tractor beam do? What hope would escape pods have?

Kirk should have said, 'Your shields are failing - if you lower them fully we can try to beam off your crew.' Nero's refusal then creates the dilemma - if the ship survives a trip through the wormhole it remains a potential threat - destruction is the best option.

Lots of people complain that what isn't on screen isn't canon. It's the motivation for the destruction that we actually see on screen that I object to rather than the destruction itself. There were potential valid reasons to destroy the ship but none of these are shown to us; what we are shown is a vindictive attack upon a helpless ship (also established in dialogue on screen) because Nero is a mass murderer.

I'll grant you that the dialogue doesn't establish fully that Nero is completely helpless but we can extrapolate that from the elements that that we do see. The ship cannot escape the singularity (stated and shown that warp speed at full power can't escape either - so weapons fire would also be unable to escape the gravity) and is breaking up, presumably as her shields fail.

 

[Jeyl]

Furthermore, why "flee" at all if death is clearly inevitable?

Because than I would assume these characters had a brain capable of determining what's right and what's wrong, like having their first priority being that to save Romulas from the super nova, share their advanced technology with the empire, prepare an invasion against the federation, and when they seize the red matter from Spock, freaking invade!

But again, these are not smart characters. The Jellyfish flies towards the Narada the first time, Nero says "Capture that ship!". Second time around? "FIRE EVERYTHING!" Wow. Not to mention that Nero's armed crew can't even shoot their own weapons effectively in an environment that they know by heart even when their enemies don't.

 

[Pauln6]

Hmm yes - if Nero had gone back further and was actually a catalyst for the Romulan War, the romulans could have won, making a darker, more interesting timeline. Much better plot actually but a bit reminiscent of Yesterday's Enterprise and the grittier NuBsG perhaps.

 

[Devon]

The uncertainty in the dialogue just serves as evidence that it was a bit shoddy. Realistically, what assistance could Enterprise have offered? If warp engines at max couldn't escape the gravity what could a tractor beam do? What hope would escape pods have?

Who said anything about escape pods? Sorry if this was mentioned in this thread.

Not to mention that Nero's armed crew can't even shoot their own weapons effectively in an environment that they know by heart even when their enemies don't.

Yep, pretty much how it's always worked in Star Trek, both for the good and bad guys.

 

[Devon]

Double post.

 

[Pauln6]

Who said anything about escape pods? Sorry if this was mentioned in this thread.

Nobody. But try to work out what practical assistance the Enterprise could have offered. I can't think of anything that could have helped beyond trying to transport the crew off the ship. Maybe you can think of something else?

 

[Devon]

Who said anything about escape pods? Sorry if this was mentioned in this thread.

Nobody. But try to work out what practical assistance the Enterprise could have offered. I can't think of anything that could have helped beyond trying to transport the crew off the ship. Maybe you can think of something else?

Transporting is the only option. Just not sure how escape pods came into the discussion.

 

[Pauln6]

Transporting is the only option. Just not sure how escape pods came into the discussion.

Well I was postulating whether they could tractor out escape pods before they were crushed but it seems very unlikely.

Also, thinking logically, we know that gravity bends light so it would presumably affect what ever energy beam that constitutes transporting particles? I can't see how transporting would work either. Anybody have any better ideas?

Hang on then - how would they be able to talk on the viewscreen? How would they even have been able to see the Narada? I think we need a physicist to help out here...

 

[Jeyl]

Yep, pretty much how it's always worked in Star Trek, both for the good and bad guys.

Ya, but that doesn't mean it always works. It paints the Romulans as completely inept and one dimensional plot cut outs. The only reason they're worth anything to the plot is because they have this ship that can blow stuff up and red matter that can destroy planets. You take those two elements away from them, they're essentially nothing. To quote Plinkett:

"You know, it really adds a lot of tension in the movie when the main enemy forces are totally ineffective. Won't be a problem. Now I'm really on the edge of my seat."

Especially when a crippled, worn out, barely conscious and recently tortured Captain Pike just somehow manages to not only grab a weapon he's never used before, but react quickly enough to aim and shoot down not one, but two weapon ready Romulans who were shown drawing their guns before Pike even reacted. This isn't a mining ship, it's a bowling ally.

 

[Pauln6]

Especially when a crippled, worn out, barely conscious and recently tortured Captain Pike just somehow manages to not only grab a weapon he's never used before, but react quickly enough to aim and shoot down not one, but two weapon ready Romulans who were shown drawing their guns before Pike even reacted. This isn't a mining ship, it's a bowling ally.

Can't blame Trek for this though. Trained killers capable of hitting only thin metal bars, walls, and the dirt have been a staple of action adventures ever since stunt men discovered those mini-explosives. Personally I wish they'd save their money - they add almost nothing to the excitement of a movie.

And who can forget the pinpoint accuracy of Imperial Stormtroopers?

 

[Jeyl]

And who can forget the pinpoint accuracy of Imperial Stormtroopers?

+1 for another Star Wars element that JJ loves so much in Star Trek. And I thought the bad taste of Star Trek Nemesis with their stormtrooper like aim would have put that out.

 

[Therin of Andor]

The writers wanted a moment where the audience cheered loudly for Kirk and Spock. I saw the movie in cinemas six times, and each time the destruction of Nero, planet-killer, murderer of billions of Vulcans, got a resounding cheer.

I'm not sure if the audience would have cheered them for merely taking Nero prisoner or watching his ship pass through a black hole.

 

[JarodRussell]

The writers wanted a moment where the audience cheered loudly for Kirk and Spock. I saw the movie in cinemas six times, and each time the destruction of Nero, planet-killer, murderer of billions of Vulcans, got a resounding cheer.

I'm not sure if the audience would have cheered them for merely taking Nero prisoner or watching his ship pass through a black hole.

Sad state of the audience, isn't it?