Actually, in some cases, yes.
What Amazes Me
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Actually, in some cases, yes.
Probably the only thing that could have improved Trek09 for me is for Data and Picard to show up at the end and "rescue" Spock Prime from this lame alternate universe. In the prequel comic they watched Spock fall into the wormhole, I'm sure Data would have figured out what happened.
Hell, in TNG episode where Worf was hopping between alternate realities they found a way to get him back to his reality.
Hell, in TNG episode where Worf was hopping between alternate realities they found a way to get him back to his reality.
The is pretty much the stupid "don't kill the Ceti Alpha eel" argument all over again x10000000000.
It would have been horrid storytelling/dramatics to capture him and ship him off to some rehabilitation center (with the one provision if they wanted him around for a follow up movie...)
Otherwise the heroes finish off the villain once and for all and move on to their next adventure.
A squishy ending like some seem to have want (and I have no doubt those that do are the Trek hardcore faithful who see Star Trek as more than entertainment) would have come across as laughable.
It would have been horrid storytelling/dramatics to capture him and ship him off to some rehabilitation center (with the one provision if they wanted him around for a follow up movie...)
Otherwise the heroes finish off the villain once and for all and move on to their next adventure.
A squishy ending like some seem to have want (and I have no doubt those that do are the Trek hardcore faithful who see Star Trek as more than entertainment) would have come across as laughable.
Well, there are other ways. You could have Nero simply choose to remain on board the Narada, but give him a little something more to work with. Like when the black hole starts destroying his ship and his crew fleeing in panic, he sits back down on his chair realizing that it's all over for him. He may have destroyed Vulcan, but he failed to save Romulus. Maybe the thought that he has now doomed not only his Nu self, but the woman he loved so much is what really puts him in a position of regret.
Then the Enterprise calls in offering assistance. He obviously gives his "I would rather die in agony" speech, but Kirk and Spock could have had an ace up their sleeve. A single drop of red matter perhaps? Kirk could tell Nero that they have the only means of stopping the super nova that destroys Romulas, but they don't know which sun it will be (Spock's mind meld was pretty vague and he's not around). If you want to keep it simple, you could still have Nero refuse the surrender anyways, but still give the Enterprise the info on which sun would go super nova. He still dies along with his ship due to the black hole (Not the Enterprise firing all weapons), but at least he tries to accomplish his original goal to save Romulas, which even Kirk should understand.
I'm not opposed to them destroying Nero; I'm opposed to them destroying him for revenge as opposed to some valid reason such as the wormhole escape excuse.
I also agree that showing Nero that his obsession with revenge has doomed his wife all over again would have been a more fitting epitaph to the idiocy and pointlessness of revenge. Instead we show that actually revenge IS good because look at how satisfied Kirk and Spock look. AMERICA, F**K YEAH!
We can assume that NEro warned someone on Romulus during his 25 year holiday but to what end if they wouldn't consider evacuating even on the verge of their destruction and if there's no Vulcan science Acadamy it means no future red matter too? Revenge sucks.
Once again, I think NuBSG was more self-aware when dealing with issues like this. Suicide bombing is fine as long as you view it from the perspective of the desperate, opressed people like the poor Galacticans. Except of course viewed objectively it isn't ever acceptable.
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Ah yes, that other movie abomination that refused to acknowledge that Star Trek is real. And, as you might expect, the highest grossing of all Trek movies.
Until the current one.
Not if the objective is the complete destruction of the enemy.
Jeyl said:
So now the measuring stick for intelligence is how much one kowtows to the plans of the Romulan Empire? Nero stands apart, as said in the film, and sees the destruction of Vulcan as averting genocide. Wiping out the Federation worlds would obviously benefit the Romulans more than their ridiculous plan to invade an entire planet with three small ships.
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Than why not just blow up the suns that correspond to each solar system rather than wasting hours upon hours drilling into a freaking planet?
What happened the last time?
Pauln6 said:
I think we can assume Nero planned to hold on to it.
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What last time?
And have people again scream, "DAMN RESET BUTTON!"
About the only reset button I'd agree with. I'd actually collapse in relief knowing that characters I actually like finally make it to the scene. Screw NuKirk, screw NuSpock, and screw Prime "I just witnessed billions die, and I feel great!" Spock.
I watched the movie with a friend, and when the Ent was being sucked into the black hole, my friend began to hypothesize that they'd get sucked in, and when they came out, the whole timeline would be reset back to Prime.
Now, aside from how that wouldn't really make any sense, I knew that wasn't what they were planning. Still, I did allow myself a moment of absurd hope that I might actually get to see the prime Enterprise come bursting forth. Now, that would've made me stand up and cheer. I get shivers just thinking about it.
But, I seem to be in the minority in the opinion that the original TV Enterprise is the prettiest ship in the galaxy, so I can understand why they didn't go that route. It would've been nice for me, though.
Hypothetical, yes, but just to play devil's advocate, there's no definite way to establish that Old Spock did actually come from the original timeline (nor that the Kelvin scene was in that timeline). It's undeniable that such was the creators' intention, but within the fictional context, it is ultimately unknowable.
Not that that makes any difference, of course. Whether this or that person or scene came from this or that timeline shouldn't have any bearing on one's enjoyment of the movie (and I feel quite comfortable that no such considerations affected my final opinion of the film).
By the same token, there's no definite way to establish that any sequel takes place in the same timeline as its predecessor. In a film series this is generally assumed to be the case regardless of the inevitable lack of definitive "proof".
I get what you're saying, but this is still a different case. A sequel is always assumed to follow its predecessor, so that's not a problem. But this wasn't a sequel, this was a reimagining, the main body of which took place in a proudly alternate timeline. So the assumptions that come with sequels don't really apply here.
But honestly, if somebody wanted to make the argument that TMP took place in a different timeline than TOS, I wouldn't ultimately hold it against them. Because, see, it really comes down to personal choice. Since there can be no definite onscreen indication, that leaves each viewer free to "place" it themselves. So, I'm not gonna say you're wrong that Old Spock was from the prime timeline, I'm simply asserting that it need not be the case, contingent on preference.
So why bother with the "it's not canon, so it doesn't count" notion if you're going to go by that logic?
From Spock Prime's POV it is a sequel. ( And Nero's crew, but we didn't know about them before. )
Since there can be no definite onscreen indication, the intent of the creators is relevant. Otherwise the very concept of a sequel is essentially thrown out.
Jeyl said:
That's a completely different issue. Films are one thing; books, comics, and videogames are another. The comic-book equivalent of the "sequels aren't necessarily in the same timeline" position would be to say that Countdown and Nero are not necessarily in the same timeline.
Yes, yes. They both are set in a fictional setting, involve writers, artists, editors, have characters with a story, are owned by the same company, they carry the same trademark, they have a pre-production, production and post-production stage, are bought with real money and are enjoyed by people as a form of entertainment. I can totally understand your reasoning to dismiss them entirely.
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