Spoilers Strange New Worlds General Discussion Thread

[Nerys Myk]

Michael Burnham being Spock's sister is farfetched. We knew more about Spock's family than any other character's family in TOS.

You're confusing what we know, with what the characters know.

Kirk talks about Spock's father being an ambassador and mother being a teacher in This Side of Paradise.

No, Spock tells Kirk that his mother was a teacher and his father an ambassador. There's no indication that Kirk knew this. And he seems to forget by the time of Journey to Babel

KIRK: What can you expect from a simpering, devil-eared freak whose father was a computer and his mother an encyclopedia?
SPOCK: My mother was a teacher. My father an ambassador.
KIRK: Your father was a computer, like his son. An ambassador from a planet of traitors. A Vulcan never lived who had an ounce of integrity.

McCoy knew that Spock's family was important, but not how important in Amok Time.

No, he didn't

KIRK: Bones, you know who that is? T'Pau. The only person to ever turn down a seat on the Federation Council.
MCCOY: T'Pau. Officiating at Spock's wedding?
KIRK: He never mentioned that his family was this important.

Gee, another thing Spock failed to mention.

We knew that Vulcan marriages are arranged in childhood which makes Sybok's reveal in ST5 logical. Hell, we even knew that Spock had a childhood pet.

Both of which first come up in the episodes they were introduced and everyone is surprised at the information.

Spock having a human sister that went to the academy, was in Star Fleet, and led a mutiny would have known as well even with the order not to discuss Discovery.

Who's to say it wasn't? Especially after they find out Spock's father is Sarek.

One secret sibling was enough.

Secret from who? Us? Everything's a "secret" from the audience until it hits the screen. A secret from the other characters? Not really. It's not like Spock was hiding these things from his crewmates.

 

[SJGardner]

It's not like Star Trek is the franchise that would never introduce a major interstellar war in the fourth season of a series that apparently has still been fought for the first three seasons without any characters mentioning it at all.

 

[valden]

Yes, because no one has ever had super secret people in their past to be dramatically revealed later.

okay.

I get it, you are a discovery fan and no offence all your replies to me, I am beginning to find it quite condensing and sarcastic. Maybe it just my own POV but that is what I am getting and I dont like to put people on ignore, however I may have no choice here.

Discovery is just a bad show, it is poorly written front and back that can be proven on many objective tv writing grounds, especially when you compare it to a show like TNG, one of the most compelling and intellectual sci-fi shows of all time and the michael story is a big contributing factor to the poor quality of discovery because her character breaks so many grounds of the trek universe that weakens the story telling and even the lore of star trek. I have watched star trek for decades and the lore has never made anyone so centre of the universe as they do with Michael supported by CW level writing plot.

The sarcasm replies, only heightened my trust that discovery is terrible since that is the way bad shows are usually defended because there is no substance to defend with. I just hope Strange new worlds can be better and watchable enough since it has many familiar faces in main roles including very iconic characters like Uhura and Spock.

 

[Belz...]

At best it clashed with some BTS comments and fan supposition,.

No, and even Kirk comments in TFF, lampshading the expected fan complaints. It clashed because sibblings were never mentioned where they should otherwise have been. I'm not of the opinion that it was a major issue, but to pretend that there wasn't any issue at all would be disingenuous.

Sybok, and Sarek and Amanda, and T’Pring. It isn’t an outlier, it’s the standard for his behavior.

You're overstating your case, which only has two data points, not four, unless you're claiming that it surprised you that he had parents.

 

[Belz...]

It's not like Star Trek is the franchise that would never introduce a major interstellar war in the fourth season of a series that apparently has still been fought for the first three seasons without any characters mentioning it at all.

Let's just say that Star Trek has a very long tradition of wrecking its own continuity for the sake of new stories.

Discovery is just a bad show, it is poorly written front and back that can be proven on many objective tv writing grounds,

You should be more careful. If you're going to claim that something is objectively good or bad I'm going to have to ask you for your math. "Good" and "bad" are subjective. You may say that there's a consensus on the matter (and I'll still ask you to back it up), but no more.

 

[Schlegelmilch]

You need to re-watch those episodes my friend. In "This Side Of Paradise", it's Spock who talks about his mother and father in response to a taunt by Kirk in the transporter room as he's trying to free Spock of the Spore influence.

In "Amok Time", it's Kirk (not McCoy), who recognizes T'Pau, and informs McCoy about her history; and they're both surprised because it's yes neither one knew Spock's family was "...this important..."

So yeah if your knowledge of TOS cannon is this inaccurate, you're not doing your position any favors.

As for Vulcan marriages being arranged, it doesn't make Sybok's existence illogical (as he was the product of Sarek's earlier marriage to a Vulcan princess) it actually makes Spock's existence illogical why would any Vulcan family arrange a marriage between a Vulcan and a Human?

So yeah as as far as your arguments, they make no logical sense.

I just re-watched both scenes. Spock is the one who mentioned his parents' professions. However, Kirk does refer to Amanda as an encyclopedia. You can infer that Kirk knew what job each had. He didn't seem surprised by Spock's statement. As for Amok Time, I mis-remembered who made the observation that Spock's family was important. Kirk recognizes T'Pau. McCoy seems impressed. Then, Kirk makes the comment about the importance of Spock's family. My reference to arranged marriages was in reference to Sybok, not Spock. How, Sarek became acquainted with Amanda has never been explained. My comment about Burnham was that it did her character a disservice. As I said Spock's family background was explored more than any other character is TOS, but thanks for refreshing my memory.

 

[Nerys Myk]

No, and even Kirk comments in TFF, lampshading the expected fan complaints. It clashed because sibblings were never mentioned where they should otherwise have been. I'm not of the opinion that it was a major issue, but to pretend that there wasn't any issue at all would be disingenuous.

This exchange?

SPOCK: You ordered me to kill my brother.
KIRK: The man may be a fellow Vulcan, but that doesn't...
SPOCK: You do not understand me, Captain. Sybok, also, is a son of Sarek.
KIRK: He's your brother brother? You made that up.
SPOCK: I did not.
KIRK: You did too. Sybok couldn't possibly be your brother because I happen to know for a fact that you don't have a brother.
SPOCK: Technically, you are correct. I do not have a brother.
KIRK: You see?
SPOCK: I have a half-brother.

All that establishes is Spock never mentioned to Kirk he had a brother. And he's annoyingly literal. I doubt the writers gave Spock's history a thought. These are the same guys who wrote

SPOCK: I was thinking of Sybok. I have lost a brother.
KIRK: Yes. ...I lost a brother once. But I was lucky, I got him back.

They seem to have forgotten that Kirk lost his actual brother. I don't think continuity was their strong suit.

You're overstating your case, which only has two data points, not four, unless you're claiming that it surprised you that he had parents.

Three.
Spock has a (half)brother
The Vulcan ambassador and his wife are Spock's parents.
Spock has a wife/fiancee/whatever
You could toss in that Spock has referred to his father in the past tense in prior episodes, giving the impression he was dead.

 

[cooleddie74]

I always look at Kirk's line at the end of TFF as a winking reference to Sam but then he surprises the audience by saying he's referring to Spock. I doubt Shatner and Bennett forgot Kirk had an older brother who died a tragic death in TOS. That episode was well-known.

 

[fireproof78]

get it, you are a discovery fan and no offence all your replies to me, I am beginning to find it quite condensing and sarcastic. Maybe it just my own POV but that is what I am getting and I dont like to put people on ignore, however I may have no choice here.

Just sarcastic. Condescension is a waste of time.

Discovery is just a bad show, it is poorly written front and back that can be proven on many objective tv writing grounds,

What are they? People state objective standards as if art is objective when it comes to enjoyment.

especially when you compare it to a show like TNG, one of

I don't. I treat DSC as it's own part of Trek lore. No comparison required.

Michael is a dynamic character, one whom I quite enjoy watching struggle. I appreciate her connection to Spock and look forward to SNW exploring Spock more. These are not contradictions, nor do they ruin anything. It's just part of the Trek world, and all the good, bad and everything in between that world has.

 

[Belz...]

I doubt the writers gave Spock's history a thought.

That's the complaint, generally. There was quite a bit of a stir back in the day about the Sybok thing, and it was such an obvious issue that the writers felt they had to write it into the script to head off the complaints. It might not be an issue to you but it was _an_ issue.

Now, I don't want to derail the thread with this, but for those of us who do care about continuity, even if we probably shouldn't, that tends to irk us a bit.

The Vulcan ambassador and his wife are Spock's parents.

But that doesn't count as revealing a family member, which is what's being discussed.

 

[fireproof78]

Three.
Spock has a (half)brother
The Vulcan ambassador and his wife are Spock's parents.
Spock has a wife/fiancee/whatever
You could toss in that Spock has referred to his father in the past tense in prior episodes, giving the impression he was dead.

Also, Picard met Sarek once at "Sarek's son's wedding." So, Spock is married?

 

[Belz...]

Also, Picard met Sarek once at "Sarek's son's wedding." So, Spock is married?

Maybe it was yet another son.

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe it was yet another son.

We all know that's impossible!

 

[Nerys Myk]

hat's the complaint, generally. There was quite a bit of a stir back in the day about the Sybok thing, and it was such an obvious issue that the writers felt they had to write it into the script to head off the complaints. It might not be an issue to you but it was _an_ issue.

Now, I don't want to derail the thread with this, but for those of us who do care about continuity, even if we probably shouldn't, that tends to irk us a bit.

Trust me, I was there. (Fan since '66) I was more bothered by them forgetting Kirk had a brother than them giving Spock one. Like I said, continuity wasn't a strong suit of the people making TOS films. Giving a damn about about what fans might think, probably wasn't either.
I've yet to find a piece of continuity that says Spock can't have a sibling or two. Only one shows that Kirk is unaware that Spock has a brother. But as shown, he's almost criminally unaware of Spock's pre-Starfleet life, in the same way that McCoy is unaware of Spock's Vulcan physiology.

 

[fireproof78]

Trust me, I was there. (Fan since '66) I was more bothered by them forgetting Kirk had a brother than them giving Spock one. Like I said, continuity wasn't a strong suit of the people making TOS films. Giving a damn about about what fans might think, probably wasn't either.
I've yet to find a piece of continuity that says Spock can't have a sibling or two. Only one shows that Kirk is unaware that Spock has a brother. But as shown, he's almost criminally unaware of Spock's pre-Starfleet life, in the same way that McCoy is unaware of Spock's Vulcan physiology.

Producers not caring about fans is definitely a time I am nostalgic form.

 

[SJGardner]

Maybe it was yet another son.

We all know that's impossible!

So, there was this time when Burnham and Tilly got really high on the latter's secret stash of Orion volcanic dust and decided to travel back to the 24th century on a whim... Picard, then captain of the USS Stargazer, reported the incident complete with names, which prompted Sarek to immediately warp there to meet Michael before the Guardian of Forever realized what was up and pulled the pair back into the 32nd century. In their inebriated state, they asked Picard to officiate their Vegas-style wedding as a Starfleet Captain, and Picard did so, with Sarek in attendance. He, however, heard the name "Michael," didn't realize it could also be a woman's name, concluded Sarek's child was a trans man and politely decided not to ask any potentially offensive questions.

There, problem solved.

 

[Belz...]

Trust me, I was there. (Fan since '66) I was more bothered by them forgetting Kirk had a brother than them giving Spock one.

Hey, everyone's bothered by something or other. I'd love to be able to not care about that scene in TNG where the guest star is holding the tricorder upside down. For pete's sake, talk about unimportant!

 

[fireproof78]

Hey, everyone's bothered by something or other. I'd love to be able to not care about that scene in TNG where the guest star is holding the tricorder upside down. For pete's sake, talk about unimportant!

Being a military nerd and the ability to read rank insignia has proven that ignoring little details is necessary for my sanity.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I doubt Shatner and Bennett forgot Kirk had an older brother who died a tragic death in TOS. That episode was well-known.

I wish I could believe that.

 

[cooleddie74]

I had a reference once...