Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x02 - "New Eden"

[Nyotarules]

One of the aspects of Roddenberry’s vision that always seemed profoundly biased and short sighted to me: the positive future of humanity will be post-religious. Highly unlikely.

I have no doubt that even in Roddenberry’s future Christianity and many other religious traditions are actually thriving, even among the elite, best and brightest minds of Starfleet.

In a galaxy of infinite numbers of sentient species I’m also sure that those traditions adapt to account for such diversity. But they’ll still be around.

The Vulcans seemed to have the strictest religious belief of all, follow Surak or leave the planet (Sybok, The ENTs V'tosh katur). they were so determined to leave their violent, barbaric past their logical belief system replaced one extreme behaviour with another.

It is perfectly likely. In the western countries religion is rapidly diminishing. Education and good standards of living do that. Of course it will never be completely gone, but it quite plausible that in a Star Trek style highly advanced society it would be a fringe phenomenon.

Depends on the type of humans who are able to abandon the system we have in the present global set up and be able to formally unite politically and get rid of all present day negative 'isms'. Is it because they educated themselves out of organised religion or they recognised in a universe where aliens are way more advanced then they are, whether one was religious or not is irrelevant to the new society they had to build?

Scientists are working on understanding how the universe happened, and in one day we indeed might have that information. And if that information does not imply a god, what then?

What then? People will continue to believe what they want to believe as long it does not impinge on their fellow humans in a harmful manner, then it is all good.

Paging Australia to the thread

And Australia had more than 11,000 people after 200 years. I don't think the New Eden colonists like sex very much. Or they perfected birth control, writing a new bible, farming and nothing else

Does he think May was speaking with a Jamaican accent???

Theresa May's accent is middle class English, her dancing is bad enough, her fake Jamaican accent would be terrible

It could have been Jamaican, West Indian or Guyanese. I hear these accents fairly often in the 6ix.

Jamaicans are West Indians, Guyanese are honorary West Indians.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

- Jamaican Tilly. Possibly the worst guest 'actor' I've ever seen on Trek... yikes.

I think her acting was fine. I think her characterization was intentionally meant to elicit the idea that she wasn't really there (I said to my wife during her second onscreen appearance that I bet she exists only in Tilly's mind). So she ended up popping in and out of the scene from seemingly nowhere, which might throw you a little when gauging her performance.

Her voice was a bit odd, but I thought the acting was fine, even if she seemed to pop out of relative nowhere to deliver her line, only to disappear again from scene context. I think we were meant to feel something was a bit off about her, to provide clues for the later-to-come "ah-ha" moment.

 

[Noname Given]

I wonder if people had the same problems with Quark and Odo being main characters despite being a civilian and chief of security for only the Promenade, or if DS9 gets a pass on account of being a space station and commercial hub.

DS9 may be loved by many now, but when it first hit the airwaves it was:

- OMG! GR is rolling in his grave --- this show is so gritty/dark and the antithesis of "Gene's Vision"™.

- How can one 'Boldy Go' on a Space Station that sits in one place? It's the antithesis of "Gene's Vision"™.

- Sisko has the wrong attitude. Plus why is he mad at Picard. Picard was 'mind controlled' by the Borg and is sorry; and Sisko should be intelligent enough to realize this and not blame Picard. It's the antithesis of "Gene's Vision"™.

- Kira is a real Bitch and a religious nut. Why is Starfleet (who got the Station in the Cardassian treaty even allowing the Bajorians a say in how it's run? It's now a Starfleet Starbase and they need to toe the line. It's the antithesis of "Gene's Vision"™.

...and I could go on. Yet now 25+ years later DS9 is held up by some as the pinnacle of what Star Trek is; and is a beloved show of the Franchise.

So, yeah, Star Trek fans...

 

[Tuskin38]

I saw a great post on reddit regarding Pike's enforcement of General Order One

https://www.reddit.com/r/startrek/comments/akcbxj/general_order_one_spoiler_alert/ef3mehk/

 

[Alan Roi]

And Australia had more than 11,000 people after 200 years. I don't think the New Eden colonists like sex very much. Or they perfected birth control, writing a new bible, farming and nothing else

Check your math. Australia has had constant immigration for 350 years, not to mention that the total aboriginal population before the Botany Bay colony was founded is estimated to be well over half a million. How many people do you think were in that church before it was transported halfway across the galaxy? If it was only a hundred (reasonably likely) then the population easily doubled every generation.

 

[Nyotarules]

Check your math. Australia has had constant immigration for 350 years, not to mention that the total aboriginal population before the Botany Bay colony was founded is estimated to be well over half a million. How many people do you think were in that church before it was transported halfway across the galaxy? If it was only a hundred (reasonably likely) then the population easily doubled every generation.

If it was a mega church ...thousands????

 

[Nerys Myk]

If it was a mega church ...thousands????

The building was pretty small.

 

[Tuskin38]

If it was a mega church ...thousands????

The church you saw on the planet was the church that they were in when they were transported.

 

[Longinus]

DS9 may be loved by many now, but when it first hit the airwaves it was:

- OMG! GR is rolling in his grave --- this show is so gritty/dark and the antithesis of "Gene's Vision"™.

- How can one 'Boldy Go' on a Space Station that sits in one place? It's the antithesis of "Gene's Vision"™.

- Sisko has the wrong attitude. Plus why is he mad at Picard. Picard was 'mind controlled' by the Borg and is sorry; and Sisko should be intelligent enough to realize this and not blame Picard. It's the antithesis of "Gene's Vision"™.

- Kira is a real Bitch and a religious nut. Why is Starfleet (who got the Station in the Cardassian treaty even allowing the Bajorians a say in how it's run? It's now a Starfleet Starbase and they need to toe the line. It's the antithesis of "Gene's Vision"™.

...and I could go on. Yet now 25+ years later DS9 is held up by some as the pinnacle of what Star Trek is; and is a beloved show of the Franchise.

So, yeah, Star Trek fans...

Well, most of that criticism on DS9 is spot on. What I find it frustrating about 'but X Trek Show did it too' is that it just leads to pointless tangents about whether the thing in the other show was really comparable, and if it was how the poster felt about that. I should be able to say that I don't like idiotic 'science' on Disco without having to list all the Voyager episodes I didn't like for that same reason (so about half of them) or be able to say that I don't like how Disco deals with religion or war crimes without having to preface it with how I didn't like how they dealt with those in DS9 either (and then have to fight rabid DS9 fanboys for eight pages on the Disco forum for daring to besmirch their beloved Saint Sisko.)

 

[Alan Roi]

- Sisko has the wrong attitude. Plus why is he mad at Picard. Picard was 'mind controlled' by the Borg and is sorry; and Sisko should be intelligent enough to realize this and not blame Picard. It's the antithesis of "Gene's Vision"™.

No guff, but it doesn't tell the whole story of reactions to old ST, and Disco - first season or this one.

The trouble people - "fans" or not - is where it comes to making sweeping statements is the assumption that fandom is in any way homogeneous. Many like new toys and have been enthusiastic with Disco from day one, and many of those also can enjoy the shift of tone this year because the subject matter kind of suggests it, where as others don't like new things and make pronouncements that they represent "real Star Trek fans" and therefore if they don't like Disco, if you like it you aren't a real Star Trek fan. It is in fact a very orthodox religious attitude and I hope Disco delves into that on some meta level this year, given religion is a topic of season 2.

Actually in my circle of Star Trek back fans in the 90s, we were annoyed that all Sisko's anger at Picard for being responsible for his wife's death (considering that the Borg attack could be attributed by anyone in Star Fleet to pre-Locutus Picard - see Q Who for Picard getting mouthy with a relatively omnipotent being) merely amounted to him not willing to shake Picard's hand. We were also annoyed when Voyager was promised to have a ship with dramatic internal conflict between Star Fleet and Maquis crew, something that was pretty much dispensed with after the opening 2-parter,

 

[Lakenheath 72]

There are assumptions made by the characters in the episode, which are considered facts by us.

There is a possiblity that other groups of Humans were saved by the angels, along with the East Fork Presbyterian Church hundreds, in 2053, who were transported to this distant world. The Discovery crew never visited these other settlements.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

What I think is odd is when criticism about DIscovery is reacted to by pointing out that previous Trek had similar flaws. What does that even mean? Just because something was bad about a previous show doesn't mean Discovery gets a free pass to be similarly bad. I've seen this all too often now around here: Someone says they don't like X about Discovery, and then someone else comes along and points out that the previous shows did X as well. And? Something that was bad then is still bad now, is it not?

To me, when someone is flat out writing off the entire show based on the first season, it makes me think of how many in the past did that with TNG, before that ended up blossoming into what it became in a season or two after, and how many seem to have forgotten that that show had a very shaky start. It’s not that DISCO should get a pass for what it delivered in the first season, but that fans should at least consider letting the show find its own voice before writing it off as a total failure. I was very mixed of the first season, but I had hope that a course correction would take place to make a more enjoyable show, and so far I’ve enjoyed the two S2 episodes more than the entirety of the first season, and look forward to seeing if they keep it up and improve more.

 

[eschaton]

Honestly, between the actress's multiracial look, accent, and the creepy vibe, Tilly's imaginary friend felt like she wandered in off the set of The Expanse.

 

[eschaton]

Also, does it strike anyone else as a bit odd that the writers chose to make Michael the hyper rational skeptic this season? Vulcans live by logic, but their own belief system contains a lot more mystical mumbo jumbo than Federation humans.

 

[Longinus]

Also, does it strike anyone else as a bit odd that the writers chose to make Michael the hyper rational skeptic this season? Vulcans live by logic, but their own belief system contains a lot more mystical mumbo jumbo than Federation humans.

It's just seems mystical to the humans. It is perfectly logical to Vulcans who are actually psychic. I'm sure they could scientifically explain how all that stuff works. Except they don't because they're smug and don't want to disclose their stuff to the outsiders.

 

[Nyotarules]

Also, does it strike anyone else as a bit odd that the writers chose to make Michael the hyper rational skeptic this season? Vulcans live by logic, but their own belief system contains a lot more mystical mumbo jumbo than Federation humans.

But their mumbo jumbo is logical.....

 

[thribs]

Why does it matter that she isn't part of the bridge crew?

You have a bit more seniority if you were, similar to what Harry Kim did.

 

[Alan Roi]

Honestly, between the actress's multiracial look, accent, and the creepy vibe, Tilly's imaginary friend felt like she wandered in off the set of The Expanse.

They are both filmed in Toronto, and Toronto is just about the most culturally diverse city on the planet, so you can expect that there will be accents showing up beyond the standard ones we are most familiar with.

 

[Alan Roi]

There are assumptions made by the characters in the episode, which are considered facts by us.

I offered a conclusion based on the information provided to the characters that was not countered by the narrative. You offer surmise, which was not addressed or supported by the narrative. I'm not saying its impossible, but there was also tacked on a whole lot of other surmising which moves further and further away from the actual evidence we received, such as a comparison to Australia (where, perhaps a comparison to say, the Falkland Islands would likely be more apt to the evidence provided).

 

[Nyotarules]

They are both filmed in Toronto, and Toronto is just about the most culturally diverse city on the planet, so you can expect that there will be accents showing up beyond the standard ones we are most familiar with.

Some folks are not aware there are other nations on the planet that have English as an official language apart from USA, Canada, UK, Australia and NZ. Thankfully Star Trek recognised this about humanity... at last