Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x15 - "Will You Take My Hand?"

[picardjean-luc]

I really liked that they named betazed and see a trill! I hope we see Dax and even betazoid! Maybe the new doctor could be a betazoid, new captain andorian and security chief trill

Agreed. For once I'd like to see a crew that reflects the diversity of the United Federation of Planets. I don't want to see a crew that's 85 percent humanoid, one Vulcan, one android/Borg, and one Klingon.

 

[Sir Stewart Wallace]

Please...take all the time you need. We'll be here eagerly awaiting your analysis after you've sorted it all out and have prepared a well-written thesis.

I'm so stunned by the absolute awfulness of this episode that I can't recognize your sarcasm.

Please don't tell me there are people defending this episode!

 

[Ovation]

I'm so stunned by the absolute awfulness of this episode that I can't recognize your sarcasm.

Please don't tell me there are people defending this episode!

Don’t look at the ratings in the poll, then.

 

[CaptainMurdock]

Anson Mount from AMC's "Hell on Wheels" is my favorite for the role. Said in my other thread.

I can dig that.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Except he's correct. Yes, TOS did have Briefing Room discussions; BUT the majority of those were Spock/McCoy, etc. arguing AGAINST what Kirk was considering and being VERY against it (sometimes for good reasons) - and Kirk basically saying: "Thank you for your opinions but I'm the Captain, and we're doing <X>...To your posts..."

In TNG it became Picard being very passive aggressive in discussions on a subject; and 99 times out of 100 doing what was ultimately agreed on by everyone in the room.

Yes it did evolve into Kirk, McCoy and Spock but in the beginning there where scenes that involved more people.

KELSO: Well, it didn't make any sense that he'd know, but naturally, I checked out the circuit anyway. I don't know
how, but he was right. This point is burned out exactly the way he described it.
DEHNER: Sorry I'm late. I became so interested in observing Gary, Mister Mitchell.
SPOCK: Our subject is not Gary Mitchell. Our concern is, rather, what he is mutating into.
DEHNER: I know those from your planet aren't suppose to have feelings like we do, Mister Spock, but to talk that way about a man you've worked next to for years is worse than
KIRK: That's enough, Doctor.
DEHNER: I don't think so. I understand you least of all. Gary told me that you've been friends since he joined the service, that you asked for him aboard your first command.
KIRK: It is my duty, whether pleasant or unpleasant, to listen to the reports, observations, even speculations, on any subject that might affect the safety of this vessel, and it's my science officer's duty to see I'm provided with that. Go ahead, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Have you noted evidence of unusual powers?
DEHNER: He can control certain autonomic reflexes. He reads very fast, retains more than most of us might consider usual.
KIRK: Mister Scott, would you repeat what you just told us?
SCOTT: About an hour ago, the Bridge controls started going crazy. Levers shifting by themselves, buttons being pushed, instrument readings changing.
SPOCK: And on my monitor screen I could see Mitchell smiling each time it happened, as if this ship and crew were almost a toy for his amusement.
KIRK: Are they right, Doctor? Has he shown abilities of such magnitude?
DEHNER: I saw some such indications.
KIRK: And you didn't think it worth mentioning?
DEHNER: No one's been hurt, have they? Don't you understand? A mutated superior man could also be a wonderful thing. The forerunner of a new and better kind of human being.
KIRK: Mister Sulu.
SULU: If you want the mathematics of this, Mitchell's ability is increasing geometrically. That is, like having a penny, doubling it every day. In a month, you'll be a millionaire.
SPOCK: In less time than that, he will have attained powers we can't understand and can't cope with. Soon we'll be not only useless to him, but actually an annoyance.
KIRK: There'll be no discussion of this with the crew. Thank you. (everyone else leaves)
SPOCK: We'll never reach an Earth base with him aboard, Jim. You heard the mathematics of it. In a month he'll have as much in common with us as we'd have with a ship full of white mice.
KIRK: I need a recommendation, Spock, not vague warnings.
SPOCK: Recommendation one. There's a planet a few light days away from here. Delta Vega. It has a lithium cracking station. We may be able to adapt some of its power packs to our engines.
KIRK: And if we can't? We'll be trapped in orbit there. We haven't enough power to blast back out.
SPOCK: It is the only possible way to get Mitchell off this ship.
KIRK: If you mean strand Mitchell there, I won't do it. That station is fully automated. There's not a soul on the whole planet. Even the ore ships call only once every twenty years.
SPOCK: Then you have one other choice. Kill Mitchell while you still can.
KIRK: Get out of here.
SPOCK: It is your only other choice, assuming you make it while you still have time.
KIRK: Will you try for one moment to feel? At least act like you've got a heart. We're talking about Gary.
SPOCK: The captain of the Valiant probably felt the same way, and he waited too long to make his decision. I think we've both guessed that.
KIRK: Set course for Delta Vega.

KIRK: Anything further, gentlemen?
SPOCK: I believe it adds up to either one of two possibilities. First, a space buoy of some kind.
KIRK: Second?
SPOCK: Flypaper.
KIRK: And you don't recommend sticking around.
SPOCK: Negative. It would make us appear too weak.
KIRK: It's time for action, gentlemen. Mister Bailey
BAILEY: Bridge to Phaser Gun Crew
KIRK: Countermand. I'll select what kind of action.
BAILEY: I'm sorry, sir. I thought you meant
KIRK: Are you explaining Mister Bailey? I haven't requested an explanation. Now, as I was about to say, Navigator, plot us a spiral course away from the cube.
BAILEY: Yes, sir. We'll try pulling away from it.
SULU: Yes, sir. Helmsman to Engine Room, stand by. All decks alert. We're going to try pulling away.

SPOCK: Next tape, please.
RAND: Spectro-analysis tape, sir.
SPOCK: Thank you.
KIRK: Almost as though they were irrational, drugged. An engineer sitting there, apparently oblivious to everything. A woman strangled. A crewman with a phaser pistol in his hand.
SPOCK: He'd used the computer room as if it were an amusement gallery.
KIRK: And a fully clothed man frozen to death in a shower. If the image wasn't so ugly, it would be laughable. Not even a theory, gentlemen?
MCCOY: Definitely not drugs or intoxication. The bio-analysis on the tapes prove that conclusively.
SPOCK: It could be some form of space madness we've never heard of, but it would have to be caused by something. Our spectro-readings showed no contamination, no unusual elements present.
SCOTT: Or at least none your tricorders could register.
SPOCK: Instruments register only those things they're designed to register. Space still contains infinite unknowns.
KIRK: Earth Science needs the closest possible measurement of the breakup of this planet. To do this, we need the Enterprise in a critically tight orbit. Question. Could what happened down there to those people create any unusual danger to this vessel and crew?
SPOCK: We will need top efficiency, Captain. It'll be a tricky orbit. When the planet begins to go, there may be drastic changes in gravity, mass, magnetic field.
KIRK: The purpose of a briefing, gentlemen, is to get me answers based on your abilities and experience. In a critical orbit, there's no time for surprise.
SCOTT: Unless you people on the Bridge start taking showers with your clothes on, my engines can pull us out of anything. We'll be warping out of orbit within a half second of getting your command.
UHURA [OC]: Bridge to Captain.
KIRK: Kirk here.
UHURA [OC]: Scanners report sudden four degree shift in planet magnetic field. A change in mass also, sir.
SPOCK: It's beginning. Unusually rapid shifts.
KIRK: On our way, Lieutenant. I'll hold you to that half second, Scotty.

SPOCK: From the outpost's protective shield. Cast rodinium. This is the hardest substance known to our science.
(He crushes it with his hand)
SPOCK: Lab theorises an enveloping energy plasma forcing an implosion.
KIRK: Comments?
SPOCK: Obviously, their weaponry is superior to ours, and they have a practical invisibility screen.
MCCOY: You're discussing tactics. Do you realise what this really comes down to? Millions and millions of lives hanging on what this vessel does.
SPOCK: Or on what this vessel fails to do, Doctor.
KIRK: Yes, well gentlemen, the question still remains. Can we engage them with a reasonable possibility of victory?
SCOTT: No question. Their power is simple impulse.
KIRK: Meaning we can outrun them?
STILES: To be used in chasing them or retreating, sir?
KIRK: Go ahead, Mister Styles. I called this session for opinions.
STILES: We have to attack immediately.
KIRK: Explain.
STILES: They're still on our side of the Neutral Zone. There would be no doubt they broke the treaty.
SULU: Attack, without a visible target? How do we aim our phasers?
STILES: Aim with sensors. Not accurate, but if we blanket them
SULU: And hope for a lucky shot before they zero in on us?
STILES: And if we don't? Once back, they'll report that we saw their weapons and ran.
SULU: And if they could report they destroyed us?
STILES: These are Romulans! You run away from them and you guarantee war. They'll be back. Not just one ship but with everything they've got. You know that, Mister Science Officer. You've the expert on these people, always left out that one point. Why? I'm very interested in why.
KIRK: Sit down, Mister.
SPOCK: I agree. Attack.
KIRK: Are you suggesting we fight to prevent a fight?
MCCOY: Based on what? Memories of a war over a century ago? On theories about a people we've never even met face to face?
STILES: We know what they look like.
SPOCK: Yes, indeed we do, Mister Stiles. And if Romulans are an offshoot of my Vulcan blood, and I think this likely, then attack becomes even more imperative.
MCCOY: War is never imperative, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: It is for them, Doctor. Vulcan, like Earth, had its aggressive colonising period. Savage, even by Earth standards. And if Romulans retain this martial philosophy, then weakness is something we dare not show.
SPOCK: Do you want a galactic war on your conscience?
KIRK: Captain to Bridge.
UHURA [OC]: This is Uhura, Captain.
KIRK: What's our position?
UHURA [OC]: Course unchanged, sir. Estimating treaty boundary in twenty one minutes.
KIRK: Are you continuing to broadcast tactical reports?
UHURA [OC]: Affirmative, Captain.
KIRK: And at this distance?
UHURA [OC]: Approximately three hours before receiving a reply to our first message.
KIRK: Thank you, Lieutenant. Check our course ahead, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: A comet, magnitude seven, dead ahead, and the intruder changing course toward it.
KIRK: Comet Icarus four. Composition?
SPOCK: Quite ordinary. An ionised mass, a trail of frozen vapour particles.
KIRK: And when an object passes through it, even an invisible object?
SPOCK: It leaves a visible trail.
KIRK: Our chance, gentlemen. Prepare to attack. All hands, battle stations. I hope we won't need your services, Bones.
MCCOY: Amen to that. We're taking a big gamble, Jim.

KIRK: Name, Khan, as we know him today. (Spock changes the picture) Name, Khan Noonien Singh.
SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East.
MCCOY: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.
SCOTT: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one.
KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is
KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule.
SPOCK: And as little freedom.
MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked.
SPOCK: Gentlemen.
KIRK: Mister Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time.
SPOCK: Illogical.
KIRK: Totally. This is the Captain. Put a twenty four hour security on Mister Khan's quarters, effective immediately.

Even in the second and third season they conferred, discussed and formed a consensus on a plan.

KIRK: Stay seated. Commodore Stocker, I've asked you to be part of this briefing because Gamma Hydra Four falls in your administrative area.
STOCKER: I appreciate that, sir.
KIRK: Doctor Wallace, as an expert in endocrinology, I'd appreciate you working very closely Doctor McCoy.
WALLACE: (a young blonde woman in a pink dress) Yes, Captain.
KIRK: Doctor McCoy, would you fill them in?
MCCOY: The expedition is suffering from extreme old age, and they're growing older by the minute. Much older. My examinations have turned up absolutely nothing. In fact, I don't have a clue.
KIRK: What about the atmosphere and environment, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: Sensors reveal nothing which is inimical to human life. The atmosphere screens out the usual amount of harmful cosmic rays.
KIRK: We're close to the neutral Zone between our Federation and the Romulan empire. It's possible the Romulans have a new weapon and are using this colony as guinea pigs.
SPOCK: I have already begun investigation into that possibility, Captain.
KIRK: Good. I want you all to check out everything in your own departments. No matter how remote, how far-fetched the notion, I want it run down. We'll stay in orbit until we have the answer.
STOCKER: I'm sure you understand that I'm anxious to get to Starbase Ten to assume my new post.
KIRK: Yes, Commodore. We'll do everything we can to make sure you make your duty.
STOCKER: Thank you, sir.
(Everyone leaves, but Doctor Wallace remains seated.)
KIRK: Doctor, is there something I can do for you?
WALLACE: Well, be a little less the cool, efficient Captain and a little more the old friend.
KIRK: How long has it been?
WALLACE: Six years, four months, and an odd number of days. You mean you don't know?
KIRK: Well, it's been a long time. Things wouldn't change if it started all over again, would it? You have your job, I have my ship, and neither one of us will change.
WALLACE: You said it. I didn't. In all those years, I only heard from you once. A stargram when my husband died. You know, you never asked me why I got married after we called it off.
KIRK: Well, I supposed that you met someone you loved.
WALLACE: I met a man I admired. A great man.
KIRK: And in your field as you. You didn't give up a thing.
WALLACE: No. Just you.
UHURA [OC]: Captain Kirk, Mister Spock would like to see you on the Bridge.
KIRK: I'm on my way.

Even if there were some "silent" participants.

MCCOY: Go easy on her, Jim. She's in a pretty bad state.
KIRK: I'll try.
(Scott and Mira enter)
KIRK: Lieutenant Romaine.
MIRA: I didn't mean to be unco-operative, Doctor.
MCCOY: Of course you didn't. I told the Captain.
KIRK: We must get to understand what is happening.
MIRA: I'll tell you everything I know.
KIRK: Ship's investigative procedures are sometimes confusing to a new crewman. Don't let us upset you.
MIRA: I trust all of you implicitly. I want to help.
KIRK: This investigation has been prompted by two events. First is the time you passed out on the Bridge, and the second is when we fired our main phasers into that force that is attacking us and seriously injured you.
MIRA: You mustn't worry about hurting me.
KIRK: Now this is how we'll proceed. Mister Spock has all the information available to us about our attackers. Doctor McCoy has access to Starfleet's exhaustive files on you. A comparison of the two may turn up some improbable connection which may protect you and ourselves. All right, gentlemen? Doctor McCoy, will you proceed?
MCCOY: Romaine, Mira. Lieutenant. Place of birth, Martian Colony Number Three. Parents, Lydia Romaine, deceased. Jacques Romaine, chief engineer, Starfleet, retired.
KIRK: Mister Spock, are you prepared with the background history of the attackers?
SPOCK: I am, Captain. I have fed all obtainable data to the main computer. It should be ready to supply whatever conclusions are possible.
KIRK: Thank you. Mister Sulu, what is the status of our friends?
SULU [on monitor]: Status unchanged. They're still with us and keeping the same distance.
KIRK: Continue evasive manoeuvres. Keep me informed. Kirk out. Doctor, do you have a medical record of Lieutenant Romaine available?
MCCOY: Yes, Captain.
KIRK: I'd like a few items from her psychological profile checked. Any history of psychosomatic illness?
MCCOY: Occasional and teenage routine incidents.
KIRK: Any evidence of involuntary or unconscious telepathic abilities?
MCCOY: None.
KIRK: Any pathological or unusual empathic responses?
MCCOY: No, Captain, not empathic. However, an extremely flexible and pliant response to new learning situations is highly marked.
KIRK: Go ahead, Doctor.
MCCOY: After our phasers hit that thing, I gave Lieutenant Romaine a standard Steinman analysis. The results might be interesting.
KIRK: Go ahead.
MCCOY: The comparison of our Steinman with Starfleet records shows that Lieutenant Romaine's fingerprints, voice analysis, all external factors remain exactly the same as before. However, according to two hyperencephalograms, her brain wave pattern has been altered.
KIRK: That's impossible!
MCCOY: That's what I was taught. But the BCP is just as consistent as fingerprints.
KIRK: Let's see it.
(A jagged graph comes up on the monitor. Spock raises an eyebrow)
SPOCK: Doctor McCoy, according to your records, Lieutenant Romaine showed no abnormal telepathic powers.
MCCOY: That's right, Spock. But exceptional pliancy was indicated. That might be a factor.
SPOCK: And you are sure that this is the correct slide?
MCCOY: Yes, Mister Spock. That is tape deck D, brain circuitry pattern of Lieutenant Mira Romaine.
SPOCK: Gentlemen, it also happens to be tape H, the impulse tracking obtained from the alien life units.
MCCOY: Nurse Chapel followed this every step of the way. There can be no error.
KIRK: Check it, Spock.
(Spock puts his computer disc in, and the two patterns overlap and match exactly.)
SPOCK: As I said, Captain, this is the tracking obtained during the last shielded run. Computer, run a detailed comparison brain circuitry patterns, tape D and tape H.
COMPUTER: Comparison tape D's brain circuitry patterns of Lieutenant Mira Romaine and tape H, brain circuitry patterns of alien life unit, identical. Identical.
SPOCK: Fascinating.
MCCOY: There has been no error.
SPOCK: Doctor McCoy is correct, Captain. There is an identity of minds taking place between the alien beings and the mind of Lieutenant Romaine. Their thoughts are becoming hers.

And it was far from being "those scenes didn't exist on TOS".

 

[Vger23]

Don’t look at the ratings in the poll, then.

Or at the critic's scores which were generally favorable (actually much like the consensus here, which is it was very flawed but somehow nonetheless entertaining)

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/star_trek_discovery/s01/e15/reviews/

 

[Captain Killy]

I'm so stunned by the absolute awfulness of this episode that I can't recognize your sarcasm.

Please don't tell me there are people defending this episode!

I certainly am. Oh I admit I was a bit disappointed we didn’t get an epic space battle, but OTOH, that’s not what Trek really is about. They ended a war with the Klingons, by not blowing up a planet, by realizing the Klingons aren’t “the other” and that there is a better way.

You can’t ask for better than that...

 

[Tuskin38]

? at this point (2257) haven't they only been serving together so far 3 years

We’re talking about total time served not current time served.

 

[cbl1]

Sorry I thought question was how long have they served together (as in up to now)

 

[Sir Stewart Wallace]

Georgiou M.U. I guess I won't shoot you because you're Burnham and Burnham is awesome. But later, girl. Worlds to conquer, you know.

Worst scene in Star Trek. It's worse than Wesley Crusher saying "I'm with Starfleet. We don't lie" on an infinite loop for all eternity while Lizard Janeway and Lizard Paris copulate to "Code of Honor" playing in the background.

 

[The Memetic Susurrus]

And women wearing pasties on their breasts. It was tame. God forbid the show have real nipples on display as opposed to fake nipples on an alien body.

I have been looking for people mentioning a major revelation made in this episode about Burnham. For such a central figure, this event is not being discussed. She witnessed the brutal slaying of her family by her Klingon raiders. She was psychologically damaged by this event, having PTSD. This pivotal event is brought up in the episode and is offered as one of the reasons she has conflicted feelings for Tyler/Voq. Yet, no one mentions it. Is this because how it was handled by the writers?

Diagnostically, she is not a good fit for PTSD, which is why I hadn't mentioned it. If we were to use DSM-5, she doesn't fit Criterions D, E, F, or G.

But, having said that, there's also a confound. Having been raised by Vulcans directly after the trauma, she may have been exposed to Vulcan philosophical disciplines that shifted her personality structure such that human diagnostic criteria no longer really apply.

So...it's a wash. No telling what is really going on inside her mind without a better baseline but, judging by what we've seen, I cannot say that PTSD is a good fit. She's been traumatised, of that there's no doubt, but trauma does not automatically lead to ASD or PTSD. In fact, in most cases, it doesn't.

A real good example in this show of PTSD would be Tyler.

I would also say Lorca was a good fit for ASD...until the writers blew it. Then he became EEEEEEVILLLLL (TM).

 

[Nerys Myk]

It's going to be a LONG time before Burnham gets the itch to be a captain again, if she ever does. She's got major trust and self-confidence issues, and way too much emotional baggage to unpack. The series could well end with Saru pushing her toward the chair the way Georgiou was at the start. "Think how far our working relationship has come. If I - of all people - think you can now be a starship captain, then you definitely can be one... if you want it."

I think Burnham will be working her way up each season. Might be a few seasons before she hits the center seat.

 

[Kane_Steel]

I can dig that.

Pike reacting to the bridge of Discovery should be hilarious;

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[Kane_Steel]

I think Burnham will be working her way up each season. Might be a few seasons before she hits the center seat.

She's already a Commander in rank, and *may* be First Officer next season....depending on who is Captain. I suspect she will be chosen to be first officer instead of Saru, leading to a lot of drama between them.

Captain Burnham is inevitable. The revolving door of temporary Discovery captains will get old and predictable quick.

 

[picardjean-luc]

Philippa Georgiou Khan?

No. Intendant Philippa Georgiou

 

[Sir Stewart Wallace]

You can’t ask for better than that...

Oh, but I can.

Complete ripoff of the end of the Dominion War but completely, totally unearned. Wait a minute, who wrote this episode?
.....
....
...
..
.
Oh. Right. Makes sense.

 

[Vger23]

I don't think there's anything in all of Star Trek I care less about or find lamer than Section 31.

I'd rather have the Warp 10 Lizards carry Beverly Crusher's lamp back to the Code of Honor planet to play a game of "If Wishes Were Horses" with Gorgon the Friendly Angel than I would watch anything to do with S31.

I don't understand the weird fan obsession with it.

Worst scene in Star Trek. It's worse than Wesley Crusher saying "I'm with Starfleet. We don't lie" on an infinite loop for all eternity while Lizard Janeway and Lizard Paris copulate to "Code of Honor" playing in the background.

Bro...you practically plagiarized one of the posts I'm proudest of in my entire TrekBBS history.

 

[Boomer359]

Soooo... The age old franchise question: Who would win a fight, Federation or the klingons, was apparently already answered way before Kirk: Starfleet goes down like a lead balloon. Well, THAT's awkward... Also: Renders a lot of Kirk/Picard-negotiations with the klingons literally meaningless, since ALL of them lived from the Federation being at least equally a force as the klingons... Seriously, this klingon war arc was one. big. clusterfuck

I don't know. It seems like this might actually further the argument that the Federation is the Klingon Empire's greatest adversary. This is just one more instance of a peaceful resolution to a conflict. This war, the flare ups in STIII, STV, and STVI, and the rising ternsions that ended with the Enterprise C's sacrifice all resulted in escalating levels of peace and more stable and regularized diplomatic relations. Hell, the brief war in DS9 even lead to a successful alliance with the Romulans. The Federation always manages to end things in peace. Even when it shouldn't be possible, like the war over Organia in Errand of Mercy, a race of omnipotent beings interfered to force a peace. To a species and culture that prizes honor won through war and conflict, the enemy that somehow always manages to make you their friend is the greatest foe.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yea if the red alert is someone kidnapped Spock I will beat my head against table!

Nah, the only took his brain.

As a whole episode? Pfft. It would never work.

Needs to be two hours or so.

And she can't ever get a promotion because as Harry Kim realized after performing enough heroics to be fleet captain "someone has to be the ensign"

That's just Harry though. There's a note from Janeway forbidding him a promotion. He really shouldn't have drunk the last cup of coffee.

She's already a Commander in rank, and *may* be First Officer next season....depending on who is Captain. I suspect she will be chosen to be first officer instead of Saru, leading to a lot of drama between them.

Captain Burnham is inevitable. The revolving door of temporary Discovery captains will get old and predictable quick.

She can be a Captain and still not get the center seat. Commander is just her rank. McCoy was a Commander forever.
A new Captain every season sounds fun. Especially if they get top talent.

 

[picardjean-luc]

The Federation constantly skirts close to crossing the line when it comes to genocide..... the disease introduced into the Changelings by Section 31 in DS9. Each time, there is a person of principle who stands up and course corrects the Federation.

Which raises the question on whether during the war Section 31 has seized control of the Admiralty in "Discovery" and the Federation Council, in very desperate time after devastating losses, just went along with their "nuke bomb" plan to obliterate the Klingons once and for all.

I guess we'll find out eventually about S31's involvement during the first season sometime in Season 2.