Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 1x15 - "Will You Take My Hand?"

[ozzfloyd]

Exactly so.

Just what DSC needs, more amazing episodes like Tin Man...

;-)

 

[dahj]

And actually if Sarek and Burnham walked onto the Enterprise bridge in the season 2 premier

Oh I do hope this happens, and they keep the original Enterprise's tiny bridge and when they walk on I want Burnham to say "What is this, a bridge for ants!?"

 

[eschaton]

Except that you are not really taking into consideration the differences in psychology for a 'alien warrior race'. In such a scenario it could be argued to be more likely that the Klingons would see themselves as having been bested in fair combat and would have surrendered themselves after such a humiliation as they could potentially see themselves collectively as unworthy failures and deserved of death.

Nope, not buying it. We know that, at least in theory, Klingons think it's honorable to go out in a blaze of glory against overwhelming odds. Being defeated strategically due to a terrorist action behind enemy lines isn't going to make them be all like "okay, that was awesome dudes, you win this time, good game!"

 

[cbl1]

She be like "I told them not to be using that Vulcan decorator from the 2160s and you need to tone down those colors - and hey loose that fancy highfalutin turtleneck big brother!"

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Nope, not buying it. We know that, at least in theory, Klingons think it's honorable to go out in a blaze of glory against overwhelming odds. Being defeated strategically due to a terrorist action behind enemy lines isn't going to make them be all like "okay, that was awesome dudes, you win this time, good game!"

They weren't very united. an exploded home world may make a good half of them feel the need to return asap to regroup what's left of their houses and the other half fight one another to take advantage of the power vac.

Let's be honest these klingons are pretty one dimensional and stupid.

 

[dahj]

We know that, at least in theory, Klingons think it's honorable to go out in a blaze of glory against overwhelming odds

That's TNG Klingons.

TOS Klingons are sniveling backstabbing sneaky dishonorable cowards.

It's canon

 

[Captain Shaw]

No he can't die yet! Not until Matt Berry has a guest role on Discovery and they get to interact.

I want to see Robert Bathurst just wonder down one of the ships corridors in his dressing gown.

 

[zenophite]

Nope, not buying it. We know that, at least in theory, Klingons think it's honorable to go out in a blaze of glory against overwhelming odds. Being defeated strategically due to a terrorist action behind enemy lines isn't going to make them be all like "okay, that was awesome dudes, you win this time, good game!"

Not asking anyone to buy anything. But given the fictional culture it could well be a possible outcome.

Think of the parallels with Imperial Japan's acquiescence and surrender during WW2 after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They were completely humiliated and became submissive to the conquering power.

 

[XCV330]

Nope, not buying it. We know that, at least in theory, Klingons think it's honorable to go out in a blaze of glory against overwhelming odds. Being defeated strategically due to a terrorist action behind enemy lines isn't going to make them be all like "okay, that was awesome dudes, you win this time, good game!"

But they also know when they are at a strategic disadvantage. If Discovery can take out one world, it can continue to do so, potentially, assuming that there is even just one ship that is capable of that (they don't know that for certain). So they have to regroup, and can only due so under a central authority. In the end L'Rell is not just a good pick because she can blow up their homeworld, but because she's not really tired to any major faction, but still has plenty of good intel and experience with all the factions. She's the Evan McMullin of the Klingon Empire.

 

[eschaton]

Let's be honest these klingons are pretty one dimensional and stupid.

I hate to say it, but when I watched the episode last night, and it got to the part with L'Rell speaking to the houses, I started thinking "Somebody set us up the bomb" and began laughing out loud.

 

[cooleddie74]

L'Rell might help explain why women can't serve on the High Council in the TNG era. After L'Rell (IF she unites all the houses, reinstates the High Council and assumes the Chancellorship, and that's a big if) and then Azetbur the Empire might have had their fill of what they see as "inferior" female leadership for their own sexist and cultural reasons that would be idiotic but hold water in their government.

 

[eschaton]

Think of the parallels with Imperial Japan's acquiescence and surrender during WW2 after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They were completely humiliated and became submissive to the conquering power.

As I said in the other thread, the difference is that Japan was bombed after it had effectively lost the war and had been fought back to its historic boundaries. If we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1941 or 1942, I'm not sure it would have ended the war so quickly.

 

[Rahul]

That was... well... somewhat of a mess.
Sooo. It's possible to blow the entire klingon homeworld up with a tiny device that is easily smuggled onto the surface? Well, THAT'S convenient...
Can someone tell me what the first season was about? No? Because it sure as hell wasn't about the war with the klingons. That was entirely skipped via timejump. It wasn't about the mirror universe either - that was just a detour. So was it about the Federation solving a dire situation (war) peacefully? Well, no, because the solution was still "ask for surrender or threaten to blow their homeworld up".
Do we have any idea why Burnham needed to be Spock's half sister in the first place? Not really. In fact, Spock was notably absent the entire time. She could have been raised by literally any other Vulcan.

Other observations:

• Soooo... The age old franchise question: Who would win a fight, Federation or the klingons, was apparently already answered way before Kirk: Starfleet goes down like a lead balloon. Well, THAT's awkward... Also: Renders a lot of Kirk/Picard-negotiations with the klingons literally meaningless, since ALL of them lived from the Federation being at least equally a force as the klingons... Seriously, this klingon war arc was one. big. clusterfuck
• So, they made Mirror Georgiou Captain? Why? What possible tactical advantage could be gained here? She's a leader and politician, not versed in ship-to-ship combat. And being from another universe certainly won't help in staying undercover. And don't tell me "Starfleet wouldn't do genocide, and they needed someone from outside for it". We know that's wrong: Admiral Cornwell could have done it. Or Admiral Cartwright.
• There's an Orion colony on Kronos? That seems as unlikely as a Chinatown in Moscow. I don't know. Is there a Chinatown in Moscow?
• The whole Orion market had an aura of Schlock, I can't really describe... It felt much more like a sci-fi original production, or something from a one-off episode from Farscape or Stargate Atlantis, than what we know of Kronos...
• Count one up for mad, genocidal Admirals in Starfleet!
• Sarek is a much more fatherly father-figure to Burnham than he ever was to Spock
• I swear, if I see Tyler crying one! more! time! I'm going to flip a table. I really like Clem Fandango. But ever since the Ash/Voq-reveal, EVERY scene of him consistent of him crying his tears out in front of Burnham! I can't watch it anymore...
• On a related note: It feels like half the dialogue of the entire series is Burnham holding speeches - most often not even more than a more dramatized log-entry, but always waaaay to melodramatic. Enough!
• Soooo: L'Rell became Empress of the entire Empire by basically holding her entire homeworld hostage? SHE'S MIRROR HOSHI FROM ENTERPISE!!!
• Also: The last shot of the Enterprise? It was fine. No home-run. But could be worse. But, much like "prime universe", nothing more than a promise for the things to come, which could turn out as easily being broken, too. We will see more once we see the actual bridge set for the first time...

 

[Mr Awe]

Lorca will be back. Somehow. You just know it will happen.

Agreed. It'll either be because MU Lorca fell into the mycelial thing. Or, they find PU Lorca--either as a Klingon prisoner in the PU or somewhere in hiding in the MU.

 

[cbl1]

L'Rell might help explain why women can't serve on the High Council in the TNG era. After L'Rell (IF she unites all the houses, reinstates the High Council and assumes the Chancellorship, and that's a big if) and then Azetbur the Empire might have had their fill of what they see as "inferior" female leadership for their own sexist and cultural reasons that would be idiotic but hold water in their government.

Or she is so highly regarded no woman can take her place.

 

[Mr Awe]

I hope we don’t see any Klingons at all next season.

Yes, totally agree. I like most of the decisions that the Discovery showrunners have made, but the Klingons--not so much.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Or she is so highly regarded no woman can take her place.

Or it was dumb idea in the first place.

 

[XCV330]

As I said in the other thread, the difference is that Japan was bombed after it had effectively lost the war and had been fought back to its historic boundaries. If we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1941 or 1942, I'm not sure it would have ended the war so quickly.

Hitting the shipyards and aircraft factories, as well as, refineries, would have made their conduct of the war inefficient. Not to mention the understanding they were facing a weapon they had no counter to, and never would be able to develop one before their country was incinerated. Even if extremist elements of the empire wanted to press on, it would have made little difference.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

Yeah, I caught that, but I couldn't tell if there were any other easter eggs there other than the Trill.

This was probably answered already, and these aren't necessarily easter eggs, but I saw:

- Emp. Georgiou reminiscing with Tilly about conquoring Betazed

- When L'Rell and Tyler transport out at the end, the effect is almost exactly the STIII Klingon transporter

- Captain Pike callout and some familiar ship (duh)

 

[zenophite]

As I said in the other thread, the difference is that Japan was bombed after it had effectively lost the war and had been fought back to its historic boundaries. If we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1941 or 1942, I'm not sure it would have ended the war so quickly.

I have some serious doubts that the timing of the bomb would have made much difference in the outcome given the devastation in evidence and the ultimate threat being...'if you don't surrender now we will unleash more atomic weapons on the rest of your territory" but this is straying from the topic at hand...

The parallel I'm trying to make is that you have a human warrior culture (to some extent) and an example of how they handle defeat...with general (but not unanimous) submissiveness overall.