So name a Star Trek moment that you just didn't "get".

[trekshark]

Second, and maybe I'm just reading this wrong, but it sound to me like he's saying "Just because we CAN make peace and help you survive doesn't mean we MUST do so"

That sounds more like a veiled threat to me than some moving message to show how sincere the Federation was for this process to happen.

Although I can see that interpretation I always figured he meant that although the federation could use the situation to crush the klingon empire they didn't have to do that

 

[Kor]

I think it's best not to try to make any meaningful sense out of the President and Azetbur's speech / diplomatic dialog / whatever you want to call it. There must be huge chunks missing from both.

If you take out all the cutting back and forth to other locations, you are left with the following (source - www.chakoteya.net )

Federation President: Madam Chancellor, members of the diplomatic corps, ...honoured guests. The United Federation of Planets welcomes you to Camp Khitomer.
Let us redefine progress to mean that just because we can do a thing it does not necessarily follow that we must do that thing.

Chancellor Azetbur: Many speculated about my father's motives. There were those who said he was an idealist, others said he had no choice. If Praxis had not exploded, then quite possibly his idealism would not have found expression.
We are a proud race. We are here because we want to go on being proud.

Federation President: The proposed agenda is as follows. The total evacuation of Kronos has been calculated within the fifty Earth year time span. Phase one, preparation for evacuation...
...discuss the report on Phase two...
...propose we commence within minutes of the preparation...
...and assimilation will continue...
...with the Klingon Empire...
...as I imagine this work will occupy us throughout most of the week, it will be my hope that the delegations can return to the capital to implement the provisions of Phase one no later than the first of next month...
...As you know time is of the essence.

And all this mumbo-jumbo means what, exactly?

Kor

 

[enterprisecvn65]

One I never quite got was when Red Foreman...I mean the Federation President opens the conference and says.....

"Let us redefine progress to mean that just because we can do a thing it does not necessarily follow that we must do that thing"

I remember thinking "And......." but he never elaborated on what that meant exactly.

It's almost as though it's of no particular importance to the scene what he's saying, and that all that matters is that he's on stage in a spot where a sniper could shoot him.

Second, and maybe I'm just reading this wrong, but it sound to me like he's saying "Just because we CAN make peace and help you survive doesn't mean we MUST do so"

That sounds more like a veiled threat to me than some moving message to show how sincere the Federation was for this process to happen.

I think you're reading it wrong. I think you have to bring to the scene the uncharitable interpretation that the President is trying to make a veiled threat to conclude that he is making a veiled threat. All that the text presents is that the President is laying out the fact that there are multiple options for the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans, and that they should decide to reject at least one of those options.

I clearly understand the president MEANT it to be some statement of friendship, clearly he wouldn't start out such an important process by making a threat.

I'm just saying it was such an awkward statement because it had no set up or follow up that it sounds like a comment that can be taken as kind of threatening

Again if someone does you a favor and says just because I can do this doesn't mean I HAVE to do this.....wouldn't you feel that wasn't exactly the most reassuring thing to say about his act?

 

[fireproof78]

One I never quite got was when Red Foreman...I mean the Federation President opens the conference and says.....

"Let us redefine progress to mean that just because we can do a thing it does not necessarily follow that we must do that thing"

I remember thinking "And......." but he never elaborated on what that meant exactly.

It's almost as though it's of no particular importance to the scene what he's saying, and that all that matters is that he's on stage in a spot where a sniper could shoot him.

Second, and maybe I'm just reading this wrong, but it sound to me like he's saying "Just because we CAN make peace and help you survive doesn't mean we MUST do so"

That sounds more like a veiled threat to me than some moving message to show how sincere the Federation was for this process to happen.

I think you're reading it wrong. I think you have to bring to the scene the uncharitable interpretation that the President is trying to make a veiled threat to conclude that he is making a veiled threat. All that the text presents is that the President is laying out the fact that there are multiple options for the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans, and that they should decide to reject at least one of those options.

I clearly understand the president MEANT it to be some statement of friendship, clearly he wouldn't start out such an important process by making a threat.

I'm just saying it was such an awkward statement because it had no set up or follow up that it sounds like a comment that can be taken as kind of threatening

Again if someone does you a favor and says just because I can do this doesn't mean I HAVE to do this.....wouldn't you feel that wasn't exactly the most reassuring thing to say about his act?

I think it is possible to read too much in the President's speech, but I'll agree that it is kind of awkward.

I always took it as two things. First, his handlers had orchestrated the speech to be so long and meandering that would allow time for his assassination. Since the assassin is from the Federation, the timing would be set to the appropriate moment, but it would seem random to the rest of the group. Or, and perhaps more in a humorous light, he would prattle on long enough that when he was shot there would be applause because he finally shut up

Secondly, I took it as a long winded way of not presenting it a middle finger to the Klingons. Yeah, we don't have to help you and you probably don't want it. But, things need to change so we redefine it so it can change.

Speaking from a purely psychological/counseling perspective, redefining terms is such an important step in changing a person's point of view and be willing to accept something that you would normally define as bad. So, the president saying that progress doesn't mean what the three powers have treated it as follows with Gorkon's point of view.

Regardless, I kind of like the idea of it being political double-speak, allowing for multiple definitions and/or a stalling tactic so the assassination can occur.

 

[Shaka Zulu]

That pablum has been served on toasts many times but it doesn't apply to situations like this. The entity had already conspired with Lore to consume the crew. If it escaped Enterprise that time, there was a good chance that it would do what it had done so far, IE kill more people.
Taking that kind of risk with the lives of countless innocents is unworthy of so called civilized people.

If some crazy man is at the top of a tower shooting people at random, you're allowed to take him before he does more damage. That's called defense of others.

Would that people use this same kind of reasoning when discussing what Kirk & Spock were doing when dealing with Nero in the 2009 movie.

There are several times when Picard acts like an imbecile. Of course that's only because he's been written this way.

Excuse me? Kirk is a man of peace as well, it's just that people forgot about that by the time Next Generation aired. There's no need to insult Picard.

 

[T'Girl]

First of all what meaning was he "redefining" progress from. Basically progress means to move forward or to improve ...

With respect that not what "progress" means. While yes it does mean to move, that movement isn't necessarily forward or an improvement. Example, arguably the Federation and the Empire were progressing toward war.

"Let us redefine progress to mean that just because we can do a thing it does not necessarily follow that we must do that thing"

Just because they could go to war (and the Federation was ready for one), doesn't mean that they must go to war. They can redirect their past progress and move in a new direction.

That sounds more like a veiled threat to me than some moving message to show how sincere the Federation was for this process to happen.

I think there was a veiled threat ("just because we can do a thing"), but given the Klingon culture and the presence of the Romulans this might have been a indication that the president understood his audience.

 

[Starborn Dragon]

Why Spock would find Socialism efficient.

Why they sell boats if they don't use money.

 

[alpha_leonis]

Answering the thread topic directly with one word: "Marshmelons".

Seriously, Spock had never shown any issues with the English language before, up to and including very technical scientific language. Before the camping trip in TFF, he even went so far as to *research* human camping customs.

So why the "cute" mispronunciation of the traditional camping food?

 

[Gary Mitchell]

You try having your mind in McCoy's head for awhile. You wouldn't be firing on all thrusters either.

 

[Kor]

Answering the thread topic directly with one word: "Marshmelons".

Seriously, Spock had never shown any issues with the English language before, up to and including very technical scientific language. Before the camping trip in TFF, he even went so far as to *research* human camping customs.

So why the "cute" mispronunciation of the traditional camping food?

And then McCoy immediately says it with the exact same mispronunciation.

Perhaps it's one of those words that will change in 300 years. I don't mind this so much, seeing as how so-called "marshmallow" candy as it is currently manufactured has absolutely nothing to do with the marshmallow plant, anyway.

Kor

 

[Iamnotspock]

Answering the thread topic directly with one word: "Marshmelons".

Seriously, Spock had never shown any issues with the English language before, up to and including very technical scientific language. Before the camping trip in TFF, he even went so far as to *research* human camping customs.

So why the "cute" mispronunciation of the traditional camping food?

And then McCoy immediately says it with the exact same mispronunciation.

Perhaps it's one of those words that will change in 300 years. I don't mind this so much, seeing as how so-called "marshmallow" candy as it is currently manufactured has absolutely nothing to do with the marshmallow plant, anyway.

Kor

It was a script element dropped from the final cut, which saw McCoy play a practical joke on Spock by reprogramming the computer to display erroneous information as the latter continued to re-educate himself. The result was the mispronunciation of "marshmallow".

 

[JWPlatt]

I had wondered whether it was actually a local colloquialism by a writer who didn't know any better.

 

[eyeresist]

And then McCoy immediately says it with the exact same mispronunciation.

Perhaps it's one of those words that will change in 300 years.

LEELA: Christmas? Oh, you mean Xmas. You must be using an archaic pronunciation, like when you say "ask" instead of "aks".

 

[fireproof78]

I had wondered whether it was actually a local colloquialism by a writer who didn't know any better.

Well, you have Shatner, Harve Bennett, and David Loughery on the credits. Please, take your pic

 

[Starborn Dragon]

McCoys use of bloody green hobgoblin when the Federation is supposed to ahve overcome that kind of racism and bigotry.

 

[T'Girl]

McCoys use of bloody green hobgoblin when the Federation is supposed to ahve overcome that kind of racism and bigotry.

Chekov made a racest slur about the Klingons in TTwT, and we heard expressions of bigotry by Starfleet crewmembers in TUC.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

^There's also Kirk's repeated use of Klingon bastards from multiple films and O'Brien's Cardies lines.

--Sran

 

[K'Toska]

I'm not entirely sure that this fits into the general idea behind the thread but has anyone else noticed how many alien species are just humans with fucked up noses? This happens *a lot* in Voyager and is kind of annoying. Like really, no one could get more creative than that without having to spend massive amounts of cash to implement a different look? Come on.

 

[Elder Knight]

Noses? I thought that foreheads were the variance.

 

[K'Toska]

Well in Voyager it's mostly noses and sometimes foreheads too. Can't remember which is more common in the other series since it's been awhile since I've watched them.