Have you ever given up on a Trek series? If so, what was the last straw for you?

[Mudd]

The Star Trek Universe?

What is the Star Trek show or movie that you avoided because it did not have enough swearing?

Star Trek: Scouts?

The more relaxed, contemporary approach to dialogue as well as the physicality of the characters (no one sits up straight in chairs here. Okay, Ake and Mir don't) is refreshing, IMO.

I notice the swearing sometimes and not others (I was obvious to the bird-flipping until someone pointed it out) because it's consistent with most all TV drama outside the Old Three broadcast networks - and who watches anything on them? I'm in the CBS target demo, which is to day stumbling along in my walker on my way to a ventilator, and I don't.

 

[Mudd]

Exactly. Define "graphic." There's a whole spectrum between only being able to hint at sex (like on TOS) and super-explicit sex scenes. Chances are, we're not talking about anything racier than you'd see on any network sitcom or prime-time soap opera these days: Characters share a bed before or after, some steamy fade-outs, cadets only talking about hooking up and whatever.

"Oh my god, I can't believe you slept with him!"

"I know! What was I thinking?"

We now know that Spock folds his socks.

 

[Set Harth]

and who watches anything on them?

Football fans?

 

[fireproof78]

It's more about being grateful that Star Trek is no longer restrained by old-school Standards & Practices, so the characters can actually talk like real people without freaking out the censors.

Let's be honest here. The only reason Scotty wasn't swearing a blue streak when the plasma injectors acted up was because you couldn't show that on network television back in the day. (Just like you couldn't have gay characters, female captains, etc.)

Thankfully, it's not 1966 anymore so modern shows have more freedom. And that's a good thing in my book.

(And, trust me on this, put a bunch of Trek writers in a bar at a convention and we're not going to be talking like Sunday school teachers.)

I'm more curious if those protesting against the swearing in Star Trek do talk like Sunday School teachers?

 

[Greg Cox]

And this is where I point out that the very first Star Trek that ever aired involved a Salt Vampire who lured its victims by posing as an attractive member of the opposite sex.

Which was clearly meant to be a sexy, provocative notion -- at least by the standards of 1960s sci-fi shows.

 

[Firebird]

And going all the way back to The Cage, Roddenberry wrote Vina appearing as a green-skinned sex slave and table dancer to appease Pike's desires.

 

[DonIago]

And this is where I point out that the very first Star Trek that ever aired involved a Salt Vampire who lured its victims by posing as an attractive member of the opposite sex.

Which was clearly meant to be a sexy, provocative notion -- at least by the standards of 1960s sci-fi shows.

...this is actually an interesting idea for a thread (though as I'm writing this I feel as though it may have already been done)...take a classic episode, and detail how it would be 'modernized' if aired today.

Also Greg, I think you should write a bit in a novel where a bunch of writers meet up at a bar and talk like Sunday school teachers.

 

[CoveTom]

I'm more curious if those protesting against the swearing in Star Trek do talk like Sunday School teachers?

Of course not. It is situation dependent, though. People who feel the need to pepper their speech with such language all the time bother me. For example, I don't use that kind of language in professional settings. In private, I do.

It's also not that profanity in media bothers me in general. It depends on the context. For example, one of my all time favorite sci-fi movies is Aliens. In that film, I don't think you can go more than 2 minutes without an f-bomb being dropped. And it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Never has.

However, I don't think it belongs in Star Trek. Trek has always had a unique style of dialogue, and it wasn't about censorship, because it applied to all the dialogue, not just the profanity aspect. It has always had a heightened, stylized type of language unique to that universe. When Bill Mumy guest starred on DS9, he compared it to playing Shakespeare.

I like that about Trek. I think it is one of the things that makes Trek unique; that sets it apart. I can't stand the modern style of dialogue that has been introduced into Trek.

 

[Tallguy]

The three conditions I gave are pretty indicative that it would never happen on television, so not a maybe.

No matter the "Standards and Practices at the network can allow the show to get away with"? Assuming it fit the script, of course.

I'm sure there are shows on Paramount+ (and I know on HBO) that show more skin or sex or whatever than some Star Trek fans would be OK with. Maybe not all. So broadcast standards isn't really a limit anymore.

Exactly. Define "graphic." There's a whole spectrum between only being able to hint at sex (like on TOS) and super-explicit sex scenes. Chances are, we're not talking about anything racier than you'd see on any network sitcom or prime-time soap opera these days: Characters sharing a bed before or after, some steamy fade-outs, cadets talking openly about hooking up and whatever.

"Oh my god, I can't believe you slept with him!"

"I know! What was I thinking?"

Which is more than appropriate for Star Trek, depending on the story.

Let's not forget that the very first Star Trek episode, "The Cage," was all about voyeuristic aliens trying to force a virile Starfleet captain to mate in captivity. And TNG wasted no time establishing that Data was fully-functional. (Hi, Tasha!)

Sex has been part of Star Trek since Day One.

The dose makes the poison.

The only reason this is coming up in conjunction with the salty language is because the defense seems to be a combination of "That's what people do" and "Hey, we don't have censors any more like they did on TOS."

In both language and sex, Star Trek could, if it wished, be far more "realistic" on both counts.

And this is where I point to that the very first Star Trek that ever aired involved a Salt Vampire who lured its victims by posing as an attractive member of the opposite sex.

Which was clearly meant to be a sexy, provocative notion -- at least by the standards of 1960s sci-fi shows.

Sure. But would she be naked now? Because she could be. Vina certainly could (and maybe would) be. For all of the reasons of sexiness and pushing boundaries that Roddenberry wrote in the original.

I think most people want a line. We're just arguing over where it should be at.

And I'm sure there are times and places where the Star Trek writers DO talk like Sunday school teachers.

 

[Starflight]

The dialogue style of SFA doesn't bother me, but there's probably an interesting discussion about creativity thriving under restraints.

The classic example is Ren & Stimpy being absolute genius when it had to adhere to child-friendly guidelines, and turning into tedious unfunny crap when Kricfalusi was able to make exactly what he wanted with no restraints in Adult Party Cartoon.

 

[Greg Cox]

Football fans?

I'll cop to watching Ghosts religiously.

 

[CoveTom]

Football fans?

Football fans today have to have access to all the broadcast networks plus approximately 23 streaming services and still aren't likely to always be able to find the exact games they want every week.

 

[Rowdy Roddy McDowall]

Let's be honest here. The only reason Scotty wasn't swearing a blue streak when the plasma injectors acted up was because you couldn't show that on network television back in the day. (Just like you couldn't have gay characters, female captains, etc.)

Barring Kirk, anyway.

 

[CoveTom]

(Just like you couldn't have gay characters, female captains, etc.)

You absolutely could have female captains. All they had to do was switch bodies with someone.

 

[Starflight]

Were female captains banned by the network?

I'd be amazed if it was a network restriction rather than just male writers being pathetic, considering the number of female characters in command positions in other shows (every other episode of M:I had female officers for Barbara Bain to impersonate), and the fact they were apparently excited by the Number One character who obviously is implicitly on her way to captaincy.

 

[Greg Cox]

Of course not. It is situation dependent, though. People who feel the need to pepper their speech with such language all the time bother me. For example, I don't use that kind of language in professional settings. In private, I do.

It's also not that profanity in media bothers me in general. It depends on the context. For example, one of my all time favorite sci-fi movies is Aliens. In that film, I don't think you can go more than 2 minutes without an f-bomb being dropped. And it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Never has.

However, I don't think it belongs in Star Trek. Trek has always had a unique style of dialogue, and it wasn't about censorship, because it applied to all the dialogue, not just the profanity aspect. It has always had a heightened, stylized type of language unique to that universe. When Bill Mumy guest starred on DS9, he compared it to playing Shakespeare.

I like that about Trek. I think it is one of the things that makes Trek unique; that sets it apart. I can't stand the modern style of dialogue that has been introduced into Trek.

Oh, yeah, context absolutely matters. I'm going to try hard not to drop the F-bomb when speaking at a public library or grade school. (A midnight horror panel on sex and vampires is another story.) I was mostly addressing the notion, which one does often see expressed online, that profanity has no place in Star Trek, period, because it violates Gene's Vision or whatever, as though profanity is a social evil on a par with war, poverty, and prejudice.

(I still remember a fan I ran into once, perhaps on this very board, who refused to read any SF novel, no matter how well-written or acclaimed, if it had profanity in it. Seriously?)

Meanwhile, your Aliens example reminds me of the time I discovered that I could use "fuck" in a Terminator novel.

I may have abused the privilege . . .

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

I still remember a fan I ran into once, perhaps on this very board, who refused to read any SF novel, no matter how well-written or acclaimed, if it had profanity in it. Seriously?

Sounds like that individual probably shouldn't read David Gerrold's When HARLIE Was One. Especially the original version.

Meanwhile, your Aliens example reminds me of the time I discovered that I could use "fuck" in a Terminator novel.

Thinking of George Carlin's old bit about replacing the word "kill" with the word "fuck" in all the old movie cliches, e.g., "All right Sheriff, we're gonna fuck you now. But we're going to fuck you slow." or "Watch that clutch; you're gonna fuck that engine."

I'll also note that the editor I hired to find problems in my novel was a bit surprised at my general policy of "leaving everything to the imagination" with regard to sex. And with regard to what a would-be date-rapist wanted to do to my protagonist (I never do say what it is, but I later have her and her husband trying it on their wedding night. And both ending up extremely sore the next morning).

 

[1001001]

Football fans today have to have access to all the broadcast networks plus approximately 23 streaming services and still aren't likely to always be able to find the exact games they want every week.

NFL Sunday Ticket.



As for sex on Star Trek, it doesn’t/wouldn’t bother me. I think there are some great implied scenes (like Neelix and Jadzia both being injured during sex with a Klingon).

I seem to remember a decent scene between Spock and T’Pring.

And let’s not forget Dr. Beverly and her family sex ghost!

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Football fans today have to have access to all the broadcast networks plus approximately 23 streaming services and still aren't likely to always be able to find the exact games they want every week.

Spoiler: Entirely too much fuss over a lousy 25 cents.

They start with a coin-toss, then spend the rest of the game trying to get the quarter back.

 

[bdub76]

Oh, yeah, context absolutely matters. I'm going to try hard not to drop the F-bomb when speaking at a public library or grade school. (A midnight horror panel on sex and vampires is another story.) I was mostly addressing the notion, which one does often see expressed online, that profanity has no place in Star Trek, period, because it violates Gene's Vision or whatever, as though profanity is a social evil on a par with war, poverty, and prejudice.

(I still remember a fan I ran into once, perhaps on this very board, who refused to read any SF novel, no matter how well-written or acclaimed, if it had profanity in it. Seriously?)

Meanwhile, your Aliens example reminds me of the time I discovered that I could use "fuck" in a Terminator novel.

I may have abused the privilege . . .

BSG using frak worked surprisingly well.

I'm curious how much of TOS being proper family entertainment had to do with coming off the McCarthy era. But he does double down with TNG, which comes across as very prim and proper Star Trek compared to TOS. The characters are very uptight, and this is explored by Q right in the pilot where he makes fun of this uptight behavior. Did he intend to keep the characters uptight for the entire run of TNG?

I do think media is getting far too conservative in general these days.