Is it possible to just have stories about people? Or is that asking too much?
Asking for a friend.
Asking for a friend.
Why is Star Trek so bad with women characters?
- Thread starter Whizkid
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'Woke' is a big umbrella term which includes anything progressive that folks making videos can get people riled up about. Video game women aren't pretty enough because of woke, Disney live action movies are bad because of woke, and so on. There's something there for everyone. Didn't like Star Trek Discovery? That's because it's woke! Everyone should be hating woke, it ruins everything!
Of course these folks already threw black people, gay people, trans people, powerful women etc. under the 'woke' umbrella a long time ago, so attacks on 'woke' are hitting them. It's become a deeply unhelpful and unpleasant term and I'm sick of hearing it.
Weeeell.... Kirk was sexualized in the series ALL THE TIME (how many times was he shirtless for "plot reasons", or ripped his shirt while others had no problems with their clothes?). So maybe the comparison wasn't the most fortunate...
I don't actually believe that ST is deliberately wrong. Unless one tries to prove so.
As someone said, it was a product of its times.
Considering the fact that ST was, and is, far ahead of its times, it's genuinely science fiction.
That's why I hate DISCO. It's not ahead of its times. It merely grants the supposition.
As someone said, it was a product of its times.
Considering the fact that ST was, and is, far ahead of its times, it's genuinely science fiction.
That's why I hate DISCO. It's not ahead of its times. It merely grants the supposition.
PoC even more so over the past decade or two, iirc from a thread in the lit forum.
But then, we're down to a couple of novels a year instead of the old monthly schedule meaning far less room for new faces writing.
As for the shows, writers' rooms are male-dominated and it shows. Plus, going back to the 90's the cultural landscape was very different. And you only have to look at the online reaction to recent Disney output to see how women and PoC are being treated
No, Star Trek was in tune with its times . And by the time we get to TNG, it was actually lagging behind. Science Fiction is a reflection of and commentary on the times is which it is created.
No idea what the gibberish in the last paragraph is supposed to mean or imply.
Was it really? Or did it mostly reflect the attitudes (possibly left-leaning 'progressive' , but still popular attitudes) of the era in which it was made?
When I see TOS, I see the echo of 'women should have equal rights and be able to build equal careers', which, AFAIK was a theme during the 60's (and afterwards).
When I see TNG, I see the echo of 'we should not openly deem other cultures 'primitive' or 'barbaric' even though in the back of our minds, we keep thinking so' - which was, AFAIK, indeed popular during the 80's and 90's.
When I see VOY, I see the echo of proudness of 'we let women break the glass ceiling' (but not really, given how much there was to do about Janeway's 'feminine' aspects, even if only the fuss about her hair, which Mulgrew herself complained about).
In DISCO, we get (a very modest) depiction of gay / non-binary 'emancipation' - which was in accordance with contemporary themes again
I'm not too sure Star Trek was ever truly ahead of its time. If it ever truly were, it couldn't have become as popular as it did, for example.
(* my apologies if I inadvertently offended some group here, some things are not too easy to put into words in the right way)
Blergh.
Okay, @Whizkid I posted this:
And you decide afterward to open a different nonsense thread, and post 4 times in a row in this one. So you get a spamming warning for that (which you've received a warning about previously).
And then you decide to open another thread on the same subject?
So here's what's happening now.
I'm closing your other "Women" thread, giving you another spamming warning, and really hoping that after a day off to think about it, you'll come back ready to participate in good faith.
And make more sense.
I sincerely hope this is the last time I have to address this.
Carry on.
Okay, @Whizkid I posted this:
And you decide afterward to open a different nonsense thread, and post 4 times in a row in this one. So you get a spamming warning for that (which you've received a warning about previously).
And then you decide to open another thread on the same subject?
So here's what's happening now.
I'm closing your other "Women" thread, giving you another spamming warning, and really hoping that after a day off to think about it, you'll come back ready to participate in good faith.
And make more sense.
I sincerely hope this is the last time I have to address this.
Carry on.
Double-what??
Anytime someone starts ranting about 'woke', they're really telling you who they are. I'll ignore them after that. 'Woke' is progressive & humanistic. Trek was 'woke' back when Roddenberry wrote the script for The Menagerie.
From Wiki:
Woke is an adjective derived from African-American English used since the 1930s or earlier to refer to awareness of racial prejudice and discrimination, often in the construction 'stay woke'. The term acquired political connotations by the 1970s and gained further popularity in the 2010s.
From Wiki:
Woke is an adjective derived from African-American English used since the 1930s or earlier to refer to awareness of racial prejudice and discrimination, often in the construction 'stay woke'. The term acquired political connotations by the 1970s and gained further popularity in the 2010s.
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ST has very very seldom been ahead of the times. I can't translate the rest of this word salad, but I am sure it's very poignant.
Perhaps the one time they were ahead of the times was with the Kirk/Uhura kiss. It wasn't exactly the very first interracial kiss on TV... but almost. And the network pushed hard to eliminate it until the last minute. "The Empath" and "Plato's Stepchildren" were also censored in the UK until the 90's I think. So it could be said that they almost crossed a red line there.
But after this? Much more standard fare.
Which is understandable. It becomes harder to be "ahead of the times" when there's less and less censorship or taboos to break.
Would have been better if it wasn't a forced kiss. An actual romantic kiss between Kirk and a character played by a black actress.
IIRC, The Empath was censored for violence (McCoy's torture) Drawing a blank on Plato's Stepchildren.
And while somewhat distinct it wasn't the completely the first interracial kiss. I thought @Maurice and Fact Trek had written on it but my quick search was not immediately successful.
Spock's singing. ;p
“Elaan of Troyius”, between Shatner and Frances Nuyen.
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