Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God status?

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Marie1
"As stated directly in "To the Death"", few jem'hadar live beyond the age of 15. This is the age of children, Marie1.

Not exactly, as seen in DS9 with Worf's son Alexander, Klingons are full adult by their early teens. On Voyager with the Ocampa like Kes full maturity occurs by the second year.

As said:
"That's a matter of criteria used.
A child is usually defined by his age, not by the amount of knowledge he posesses."

As for - what criteria is more meaningful:
From an utilitarian perspective, the 'amount of knowledge and skills', of course.
From a moral perspective - the 'amount of knowledge' criterion is hardly relevant anymore.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

The jem'hadar are a cannon fodder species, utterly expendable, treated like replaceable trash by the vorta and the founders.

You seem to be mistaken as to the historical meaning of the term "cannon fodder." When the Soviets used to march punishment details back and forth across German mine fields to clear them so as the following tanks would not be damaged (which incidentally didn't work), that would be an example of "cannon fodder," when the French would send untrained conscripts out of the trenches onto the battlefield, so the following experienced troops would know where the enemy guns were registered, that's also "cannon fodder."

Cannon fodder in other words mean "completely worthless." Even if a few of these survived to make contact with the enemy, they likely wouldn't know what to do.

Then there's the storm trooper or shock troop, these soldiers are individually highly trained and conditioned, and while many might be injured or killed in a assault, each and every one of them knows what to do when they contact the enemy. None of these soldiers are considered to be worthless or fodder.

It's completely obvious that the Jem'Hadar are shock troops and while their leadership might consider them to be replaceable assets, they are in fact assets and the Founders do need them.

"The jem'hadar are the founders' bitches and they like it"

Then why was it necessary to addict the Jem'Hadar to the White? Why do the Jem'Hadar still rebel? Weyoun, in his first meeting with Sisko, admitted that the Founder's control over the Jem'Hadar was less than perfect and he said that initially that they weren't made to be addicted to the White, that came later.

From an utilitarian perspective ...
From a moral perspective ...

Try from a biological perspective, the Jem'Hadar mature rapidly because they were genetically designed to. By the time Humans are toddlers, Jem'Hadar are adults.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

T'Girl

The jem'hadar are a cannon fodder species, utterly expendable, treated like replaceable trash by the vorta and the founders.
And the jem'hadar like this treatement. As I already said - "The jem'hadar are the founders' bitches and they like it".


"When the Soviets used to march punishment details back and forth across German mine fields to clear them so as the following tanks would not be damaged (which incidentally didn't work), that would be an example of "cannon fodder," when the French would send untrained conscripts out of the trenches onto the battlefield, so the following experienced troops would know where the enemy guns were registered, that's also "cannon fodder." "

T'Girl, let's say one generation of jem'hadar numbers 60 MILLION jem'hadar - conservative for the entire jem'hadar population in the dominion.
In 15 years, the majority are dead. This translates in 4 MILLION dead per year, ~40000+ per day, EVERY SINGLE DAY. Tell me, how many losses suffered those russian convicts per day?
The jem'hadar must be sent into suicide missions every other week, in order for them to have this kind of losses.

The jem'hadar ARE CANNON-FODDER, utterly expendable - much like those russian sent across mine fields or those untrained french.
Their life expectancy is just as small.


"Then why was it necessary to addict the Jem'Hadar to the White?"

Why are the rebellious jem'hadar a SMALL minority in the dominion?
Why haven't they rebelled en masse - they have the ability to secure tetracell-white (they evenguard the white facilities - as established in DS9).

Because they're the founder's bitches and they like it. Those jem'hadar in 'Rocks and shoals' - 'Our death is glory for the founders" - that's how the vast majority of jem''hadar thinks.


'Try from a biological perspective'

Try?
Already done.
Your 'biological' perspective is my 'utilitarian' perspective.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

At one point, some Jem Hadar still addicted to the white, and still genetically programmed, still attempted to launch an insurrection against the Dominion, and that included the Founders.

This was in To The Death, where the Dominion discovered the Iconian gateway.

Weyoun estimated that they would gain support and eventually take over the entire Dominion.

That brings up a point- those Jem Hadar were repairing the gateway themselves.

They got or stole the equipment, and it was pretty much working just before Sisko's crew destroyed it.

If Starfleet did target breeding facilities, they would almost certainly be targeting children, since that was what the facility mainly produced.

Any Jem Hadar older than would probably have been moved out to allow for the next batch to be created.

Maybe guards and a Vorta supervisor and some Jem Hadar in the mid stages, but mostly children IMO.


It kind of addresses the OP post of the Jem Hadar and the Founders- they might go rampaging across the the galaxy still trying to conquer on their own.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Nightdiamond

We saw more independent-minded jem'hadar on two occasions ('To the death', 'Hippocratic oath') - both times, they were small minorities.
On all other occasions, all other shown jem'hada were shown to have FANATICAL obedience to the founders - despite being treated like expendable cannon-fodder, trash.

In 'To the death', those rebel jem'hadar were trying to repair the iconian gateway - and they failed.
The behaviour of the jem'hadar sent after them (who stayed absolutely loyal to the founders) makes it clear they would find little support in other jem'hadar.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

As said:
"That's a matter of criteria used.
A child is usually defined by his age, not by the amount of knowledge he posesses."

As for - what criteria is more meaningful:
From an utilitarian perspective, the 'amount of knowledge and skills', of course.
From a moral perspective - the 'amount of knowledge' criterion is hardly relevant anymore.

What she says below is accurate, you're thinking in human terms, not Jem'Hadar terms.

Try from a biological perspective, the Jem'Hadar mature rapidly because they were genetically designed to. By the time Humans are toddlers, Jem'Hadar are adults.

The Jem'Hadar aren't intended to be cannon fodder by definition- they are trained to be fearless, but they're supposed to win. I'd say the Dominion uses the Cardassians etc. more like cannon fodder. Though I won't deny that throwing thousands of soldiers at a lost cause isn't cannon-fodder behaviour.

Weyoun claims that the Founders had to addict the Jem'Hadar to the White because rebellion was common, the White usually compels those that want to be free from trying anything- that and the knowledge of almost certain death. Ometi'klan claims that he serves willingly, so it varies by individual.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

As said:
"That's a matter of criteria used.
A child is usually defined by his age, not by the amount of knowledge he posesses."

As for - what criteria is more meaningful:
From an utilitarian perspective, the 'amount of knowledge and skills', of course.
From a moral perspective - the 'amount of knowledge' criterion is hardly relevant anymore.

What she says below is accurate, you're thinking in human terms, not Jem'Hadar terms.

Try from a biological perspective, the Jem'Hadar mature rapidly because they were genetically designed to. By the time Humans are toddlers, Jem'Hadar are adults.

Already answered:
""Try from a biological perspective"

Try?
Already done.
Your 'biological' perspective is my 'utilitarian' perspective. "

The Jem'Hadar aren't intended to be cannon fodder by definition- they are trained to be fearless, but they're supposed to win. I'd say the Dominion uses the Cardassians etc. more like cannon fodder. Though I won't deny that throwing thousands of soldiers at a lost cause isn't cannon-fodder behaviour.

Weyoun claims that the Founders had to addict the Jem'Hadar to the White because rebellion was common, the White usually compels those that want to be free from trying anything- that and the knowledge of almost certain death. Ometi'klan claims that he serves willingly, so it varies by individual.

Also answered:
"Let's say one generation of jem'hadar numbers 60 MILLION jem'hadar - conservative for the entire jem'hadar population in the dominion.
In 15 years, the majority are dead. This translates in 4 MILLION dead per year, ~40000+ per day, EVERY SINGLE DAY. Tell me, how many losses suffered those russian convicts per day?
The jem'hadar must be sent into suicide missions every other week, in order for them to have this kind of losses.

The jem'hadar ARE CANNON-FODDER, utterly expendable - much like those russian sent across mine fields or those untrained french.
Their life expectancy is just as small."

And:
"We saw more independent-minded jem'hadar on two occasions ('To the death', 'Hippocratic oath') - both times, they were small minorities.
On all other occasions, all other shown jem'hada were shown to have FANATICAL obedience to the founders - despite being treated like expendable cannon-fodder, trash."

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

I suspect it's not just suicide missions. I've always imagined that the Founders and Vorta simply killed any Jem'Hadar that got injured beyond a certain point. Lose a body part? Report for euthanasia immediately.

Though in Marie's defense I will make the point that part of what defines adulthood versus childhood is brain development, which even in some teenageers is not sufficient to constitute full decision-making capacity...in a Jem'Hadar, it is possible that the brain develops far more rapidly, and the brain itself has the ability to discern with the same level of cognitive function as an adult human, in just a short amount of time.

Experience, of course, is a problem--and indeed, part of their being slaves is that they are given only a very narrow range of desires, and no ability to process a variety of different things and decide what they WANT to do and what they like best. (And any "Ferdinand" among the bulls is, I'm sure, killed. )

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

^ Yes, in Hippocratic Oath a Jem'Hadar that had a treatable injury, without the availability of medical facilities, expected to be killed. And though the would-be executioner appeared to dislike the task, when the First said to let him live, he argued it.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

I suspect it's not just suicide missions. I've always imagined that the Founders and Vorta simply killed any Jem'Hadar that got injured beyond a certain point. Lose a body part? Report for euthanasia immediately.

10000+ per day, every single day?
In order to have so many dead and wounded (soon to be dead) every single day (to put things in perpective, if no/few jem'hadar die in a month, ~400000 must die on the next day), you have to send the jem'hadar on very frequent suicide missions (rational military actions and accidents cannot generate so many casualties).
Of course, the dominion is established as the dominant gamma quadrant power - there shouldn't be any enemy that requires such a high jem'hadar body count to keep at bay.
Perhaps there's an unknown and very powerful dominion foe that the dominion must sacrifice jem'hadar by the millions yearly to repel?

There is another option, though - the founders just order the jem'hadar to kill themselves in order to be replaced with new jem'hadar, grown in 3 days (the very definition of utterly expendable/replaceable) with a different genetic make-up (the next generation, so to speak).
And the jem'hadar, fanatically, blow their brains out (I'm joking, of course - for such institutionalised mass murder there would have to be special facilities - gas chambers).

PS - About jem'hadar and the concept of 'child' - as I said, it depends on the criterion you use.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Feds could only dictate that Dominion retreats from the quadrant, and that's all they needed. The treaty is not a crock, since they can now put up a minefield and a fleet of ships in the Bajor system.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

I suspect it's not just suicide missions. I've always imagined that the Founders and Vorta simply killed any Jem'Hadar that got injured beyond a certain point. Lose a body part? Report for euthanasia immediately.

10000+ per day, every single day?
In order to have so many dead and wounded (soon to be dead) every single day (to put things in perpective, if no/few jem'hadar die in a month, ~400000 must die on the next day), you have to send the jem'hadar on very frequent suicide missions (rational military actions and accidents cannot generate so many casualties).
Of course, the dominion is established as the dominant gamma quadrant power - there shouldn't be any enemy that requires such a high jem'hadar body count to keep at bay.
Perhaps there's an unknown and very powerful dominion foe that the dominion must sacrifice jem'hadar by the millions yearly to repel?

There is another option, though - the founders just order the jem'hadar to kill themselves in order to be replaced with new jem'hadar, grown in 3 days (the very definition of utterly expendable/replaceable) with a different genetic make-up (the next generation, so to speak).
And the jem'hadar, fanatically, blow their brains out (I'm joking, of course - for such institutionalised mass murder there would have to be special facilities - gas chambers).

PS - About jem'hadar and the concept of 'child' - as I said, it depends on the criterion you use.

Where are you getting those numbers?

In the Dominion itself, I'd think there wasn't all that much dissent, everyone seems well trained from the experiences the Fed. had with affiliated planets.

Being an adult is about more than age, even in humans there have been cases. As for the Jem'Hadar, there is on-screen evidence (The Abandoned and Hippocratic Oath) that they have accelerated growth and are adults, he was not only big in size, but had advanced mental development, that of an adult.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

That gateway looked like it was functioning when you look at the scene where Sisko and the First are in there.

And Weyoun had said that experts estimated that the rebels would gain support and actually effect a general takeover of the Dominion in what was it...six months or something?

He even stated the Jem Hadar could put a million jem hadar on a Federation planet instantaneously (although I think he might have exaggerated a little on that).

 

[EmperorTiberius]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

That gateway looked like it was functioning when you look at the scene where Sisko and the First are in there.

And Weyoun had said that experts estimated that the rebels would gain support and actually effect a general takeover of the Dominion in what was it...six months or something?

He even stated the Jem Hadar could put a million jem hadar on a Federation planet instantaneously (although I think he might have exaggerated a little on that).

I'd imagine they'd be able to do it in 10 minutes, which in terms of combat is pretty much "instantaneous"

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

That gateway looked like it was functioning when you look at the scene where Sisko and the First are in there.

And Weyoun had said that experts estimated that the rebels would gain support and actually effect a general takeover of the Dominion in what was it...six months or something?

He even stated the Jem Hadar could put a million jem hadar on a Federation planet instantaneously (although I think he might have exaggerated a little on that).

He may have been lying to get Fed help, I'm on the fence there... good point tho...

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Weyoun: "With the Gateway, they could put a million Jem'Hadar warriors on any Federation planet instantaneously."

"Let's say one generation of jem'hadar numbers 60 MILLION jem'hadar

Not very realistic, prior to contact with the Federation the Founders ruled a fairly peaceful realm, they would have maintained only as many Jem'Hadar as they needed. Their average life span and death statistic would (in the mind of a 8 year old Virak'Kara) be based on that time period. Weyoun mentioned 1 million, so let's instead use that more realistic figure. (where did you get 60 million anyway?) If it take 15 years to "go through" 1 million Jem's, that's statistically is less than 183 per day, or about 66,700 a year. That's how many Jem's have to be manufacture in the same time periods to maintain a steady population.

So how are the Jem's dying anyway? A unusually high number might be through training accidents. Then there suppression of Jem' rebellions. Police actions among the Dominion population - let's face it, it's not impossibly hard to kill Jem's Ordanary accidents, if serious enough would be treated with death. Guarding the Dominions boarder, even if the Dominion is static in size, it's Gamma quadrant neighbors territories might not be.

Tell me, how many losses suffered those russian convicts per day? ... or those untrained french.

The French in general during WWII was an average of 868 killed per day, the French cannon fodder would have been approximately half of that.

or those untrained french.

And there is the magic word untrained again. That's the what "cannon fodder" means, untrained. The point I was making before still remains, the Jem'Hadar are not untrained. They are in fact highly trained soldiers..

The jem'hadar ARE CANNON-FODDER, utterly expendable"

But again, not "utterly untrained," therefor not cannon fodder.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

I suspect it's not just suicide missions. I've always imagined that the Founders and Vorta simply killed any Jem'Hadar that got injured beyond a certain point. Lose a body part? Report for euthanasia immediately.

10000+ per day, every single day?
In order to have so many dead and wounded (soon to be dead) every single day (to put things in perpective, if no/few jem'hadar die in a month, ~400000 must die on the next day), you have to send the jem'hadar on very frequent suicide missions (rational military actions and accidents cannot generate so many casualties).
Of course, the dominion is established as the dominant gamma quadrant power - there shouldn't be any enemy that requires such a high jem'hadar body count to keep at bay.
Perhaps there's an unknown and very powerful dominion foe that the dominion must sacrifice jem'hadar by the millions yearly to repel?

There is another option, though - the founders just order the jem'hadar to kill themselves in order to be replaced with new jem'hadar, grown in 3 days (the very definition of utterly expendable/replaceable) with a different genetic make-up (the next generation, so to speak).
And the jem'hadar, fanatically, blow their brains out (I'm joking, of course - for such institutionalised mass murder there would have to be special facilities - gas chambers).

PS - About jem'hadar and the concept of 'child' - as I said, it depends on the criterion you use.

Where are you getting those numbers?

In the Dominion itself, I'd think there wasn't all that much dissent, everyone seems well trained from the experiences the Fed. had with affiliated planets.

Where am I getting those numbers? I already told you:
Every jem'hadar dying at 15 years of age and the jem'hadar population numbering a conservative 60 million.

And this IS a conservative estimate - the dominion numbered hundreds of planets (each with a population of BILLIONS and interstellar tech) that had to be kept in line (like the karema - who all but admitted they only obeyed because the jem'hadar forces were so overwhelming - and hundreds like them) and the jem'hadar were responsible for keeping them in line.
Plus the jem'hadar were responsible for keeping the dominion's enemies at bay.
Anything less than 60 million jem'hadar and the dominion would be a joke - anyone could defeat it. It wouldn't be even close to being the 'dominant' power in the gamma quadrant.


Not that it matters - we're talking percentages, NOT fixed numbers. The jem'hadar may be fewer of more - the abnormally high casualty rate would be maintained.

Only 6 million jem'hadar? 1000 dead per day (an abnormally high death count for so few) - and the dominion would be an utter joke of a third rate power.
6 billion jem'hadar? 1000000 dead per day.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

T'Girl

World War 2 lasted for 7 years aka ~2555 days.
868 french killed per day as cannon fodder would make 2217740 deaths - 2 MILLION + deaths during the entire war.

This is NOT the case - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
The french lost IN TOTAL (civilian and military) 567600 people - an order of magnitude lower than your inflated figures. Among them, only 217600 were soldiers (cannnon fodder or otherwise).

About jem'hadar"
The jem'hadar abnormally high death rate DOES make them cannon fodder (a trained soldier sent in suicide missions IS cannon-fodder).
Alternatively, it makes them disposable trash for the founders (gassed in extermination chambers to make room for new genetic models).

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Where am I getting those numbers?

60 million.

Yes, from what episode did you get 60 million?

T'Girl World War 2

Yep, caught me in in an over enthusiastic keystroke, my figures were for WWI, not WWII.
That said the figures for French fatalities are completely correct.

August 3, 1914 through November 11, 1918

1,354,000 French dead

a trained soldier sent in suicide missions IS cannon-fodder

Once again ProtoAvatar, well trained, highly trained soldiers are not cannon fodder.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

T'Girl

"Yes, from what episode did you get 60 million?"
READ MY POSTS:
"We're talking percentages, NOT fixed numbers. The jem'hadar may be fewer of more - the abnormally high casualty rate IS maintained."
AND
"And 60 million IS a conservative estimate - the dominion numbered hundreds of planets (each with a population of BILLIONS and interstellar tech) that had to be kept in line (like the karema - who all but admitted they only obeyed because the jem'hadar forces were so overwhelming - and hundreds other species like them) and the jem'hadar were responsible for keeping them in line.
Plus the jem'hadar were responsible for keeping the dominion's enemies at bay and for conquest.
Anything less than 60 million jem'hadar and the dominion would be a joke - anyone could defeat it. It wouldn't be even close to being the 'dominant' power in the gamma quadrant."


"Once again ProtoAvatar, well trained, highly trained soldiers are not cannon fodder."
ANYONE who dies as fast as the jem'hadar IS CANNON-FODDER.
Even sending them in callous suicide missions has trouble accounting for their gigantic mortality rate.
Most likely, they're sent to gas chambers to make room for jem'hadar with better genetic make-up.
And, when asked to present themselvs to an insane suicide mission or an euthanasia chamber, the jem'hadar do it without hesitation - like the unquestioning fanatics they are.

As I said: The jem'hadar are the founder's bitches and loving it.


PS - The french causalities from both the first or the second world was are FAR lower (percentage wise - just in case you don't want to put numbers on the total jem'hadar population) than normal/continuous jem'hadar casualties.

And consider:
WW1 and WW2 were the bloodiest wars in human history;
France was a main front in both wars;
The casualties include soldiers, cannon-fodder, civilians, holocaust victims - EVERYONE.