Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God status?

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

The Federation is good at getting lousy treaties. I don't know why they're so bad at it- treaties with the Romulans, Cardassians, Dominion all seem so... odd!

I think they're bad at it because they have this idea that making yourself look as small and conciliatory as possible will get you loyal friends. Not in the real world--it just gets you screwed over.

True- but how many of your own people must die because of before you clue in?!?! Esp. the cloak/phase technology- even as a hiding safety thing!

Honestly, this is why I suspect the Federation's attitude towards life is...shall we say...not as advertised. You know how the Jem'Hadar say "Victory is life!"? (Of course you do.) Well, for the Federation, politics is life. (At least, as long as you're not one of the "little people" who happens to be in the way.)

It kinda depends... cuz... if I found out I had been re-engineered solely for the purpose of reproducing with ex-enslaved soldiers who are artificial in the first place. I'd be creeped out, you know? I guess it's a matter of perspective though, they may indeed want families and such...I guess it depends on how much the freed Jem'Hadar change -whether they're happy doing normal things, or if they still itch to fight anything that moves- if part of their genetics is taking from a naturally very aggressive species.

I would expect the alterations would make them more levelheaded: probably still VERY skilled warriors, but also capable of choosing another destiny.

Heck, just HAVING family life, when they've never had that in recent memory, might be distracting enough right there to where they'd have to focus on it to the exclusion of everything else. Just being a parent is an epic battle in which victory LITERALLY is a good life for your kids...especially if they're allowed to have normal childhoods, and they have to confront the mighty menace of the TEENAGE YEARS.

 

[indolover]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

If you ask me, the Vorta and Jem'Hadar are both victims of a crime against sentience. (Obviously I intend this to equate with "crime against humanity.") And from a religious perspective I see the Founders' sin as being even BEYOND taking physical life. They have deprived these beings of choice and forced them to go to their deaths without any ability to choose otherwise unless a genetic quirk happens to crop up. As for the Vorta, yeah, they act like slime a lot of the time, but they are also victims of a crime in that they can't choose to act in a more forthright manner unless there's a genetic accident.

Had the treaty held any REAL force, I think the Dominion should've been forced to un-program those species and let them choose their own fates. Of course, the treaty we're looking at is really a detente, not a defeat, so as usual the Federation gets completely and utterly screwed at the negotiating table. (You'd think they would've learned something from the Federation-Cardassian Treaty, another worthless POS.)

Jaresh Enyo deserves a hiding for getting Starfleet to sign the Bajor Treaty. Sooner or later, the pussy-boy Federation foreign policy will come to bite it in the behind. The Bajor Treaty is based on blind hope and misplaced good faith on the Founders' part IMO.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

I think the Jem Hadar HAD to be building those ships- They don't need to sleep, which means they're available to crank out ships at nearly all hours.

I think that's why Starfleet changed their tactics later on in the war-start hitting the Jem Hadar and the ship yards, then pick off the fleets.

Which brings up another moral point-they would have to target Jem Hadar breeding facilities which means technically, 'children'.

I think Starfleet kept that wormhole open and unguarded way too long in the first place-they should have put those minefields in place the moment the incident began and activated them when it finally became necessary.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Had the treaty held any REAL force, I think the Dominion should've been forced to un-program those species and let them choose their own fates. Of course, the treaty we're looking at is really a detente, not a defeat, so as usual the Federation gets completely and utterly screwed at the negotiating table. (You'd think they would've learned something from the Federation-Cardassian Treaty, another worthless POS.)

The only situation in which the founders would sign such a treeaty isif they do it on the smoking ruins of their world (by 'they' I mean the few that survived what was undoubtedly a long and vey bloody war).

Of course, by then, you wonn't have much to unprogram - the vorta/jem'hadar would die gladly, to the last one, to prevent such a situation from ocurring.

About making jem'hadar 'females' for reproduction.
Why complicate matters?
The jem'hadar already have a very good system for reproduction (better than most species', actually). It's just that it involves petri dishes instead of sex.

Which brings up another moral point-they would have to target Jem Hadar breeding facilities which means technically, 'children'.

Technically, every jem'hadar we saw on screen was a child - the oldest beinng 7-8 years old.

And - there was never mention (even cursory) that the jem'hadar are building the dominion ships. Indeed, there were mentions that the jem'hadar were not very adept at technical matters - going so far that they needed a cardassian to work in their garnison, in the conditions where there was a lot of bad blood between jem'hadar and cardassians (and corresponding security risk).

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Had the treaty held any REAL force, I think the Dominion should've been forced to un-program those species and let them choose their own fates.

How would they un-program them though? That stuff is pretty ingrained ...

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

And - there was never mention (even cursory) that the jem'hadar are building the dominion ships. Indeed, there were mentions that the jem'hadar were not very adept at technical matters - going so far that they needed a cardassian to work in their garnison, in the conditions where there was a lot of bad blood between jem'hadar and cardassians (and corresponding security risk).

About the Cardassians in the Jem Hadar garrison thing-where was that stated?



It makes a lot sense though-the Jem Hadar do not need rest, or sleep, or even time to eat-therefore they can be available to build ships almost continuously.

Some of those parts have to be put together by hands in some way, and the Jem Hadar makes the best candidate.


In "One Little Ship", Kira notes how within a little amount of time of her showing them, the Jem Hadar had committed certain operations of the Defiant to memory.

However, I do notice that the Jem Hadar were never used in higher military planning-just the execution of missions.

I always thought it was because the Founders refused to trust them in those positions, but it may be because of how they're 'designed'.

Fighters and that's it, perhaps.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Which brings up another moral point-they would have to target Jem Hadar breeding facilities which means technically, 'children'.

Technically, every jem'hadar we saw on screen was a child - the oldest beinng 7-8 years old.

No, we saw at least one elder- and he had to be 20 years old.

As for deprogramming them, there does seem to be some technology on that end. Like those people with the "prison" that was in the mind, and so years took a few hours?

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

And - there was never mention (even cursory) that the jem'hadar are building the dominion ships. Indeed, there were mentions that the jem'hadar were not very adept at technical matters - going so far that they needed a cardassian to work in their garnison, in the conditions where there was a lot of bad blood between jem'hadar and cardassians (and corresponding security risk).

About the Cardassians in the Jem Hadar garrison thing-where was that stated?

Garack in the latest episodes is seen performing such a service; if, in that situation, jem'hadar were letting cardassians into their garnisons, it wasn't for something they could do (well) on their own.

It makes a lot sense though-the Jem Hadar do not need rest, or sleep, or even time to eat-therefore they can be available to build ships almost continuously.

Some of those parts have to be put together by hands in some way, and the Jem Hadar makes the best candidate.

And, despite all that, they don't normally perform any tech task beyond manning consoles - because they're not very good at them.

In "One Little Ship", Kira notes how within a little amount of time of her showing them, the Jem Hadar had committed certain operations of the Defiant to memory.

In 'Hippocratic oath', jem'hadar who wanted to hide a ship did such a poor job that a runabout found it effortessly;
In 'Rocks and shoals', a vorta admits humans are better enginners than the jem'hadar;
etc

Which brings up another moral point-they would have to target Jem Hadar breeding facilities which means technically, 'children'.

Technically, every jem'hadar we saw on screen was a child - the oldest beinng 7-8 years old.

No, we saw at least one elder- and he had to be 20 years old.

No such jem'hadar appeared on-screen.
'Elders' were 7-8 years old. Few lived so much.
As expected from a cannon-fodder species.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

^ Your facts are dead wrong, as already discussed.

Jem'hadar do a lot more than man consoles, the Jem'Hadar in "Rocks and Shoals" were dying of withdrawl, and a Jem'Hadar elder is 20 years old. Twenty, not 8.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

^ Your facts are dead wrong, as already discussed.

Jem'hadar do a lot more than man consoles, the Jem'Hadar in "Rocks and Shoals" were dying of withdrawl, and a Jem'Hadar elder is 20 years old. Twenty, not 8.

Which jem'hadar elder? From on-screen canon, NOT trek lit, Marie1.

PS - "Your facts are dead wrong, as already discussed."
Marie1, depite your best efforts, you failed to even begin to prove your statement.

 

[indolover]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

To the Death said as such.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

^ Your facts are dead wrong, as already discussed.

Jem'hadar do a lot more than man consoles, the Jem'Hadar in "Rocks and Shoals" were dying of withdrawl, and a Jem'Hadar elder is 20 years old. Twenty, not 8.

Which jem'hadar elder? From on-screen canon, NOT trek lit, Marie1.

PS - "Your facts are dead wrong, as already discussed."
Marie1, depite your best efforts, you failed to even begin to prove your statement.

For crying out loud- as indolover says, In To the Death we learn that a Jem'hadar elder = 20 years and we saw one in One Little Ship- and they were episodes not books!!

I don't even need my best efforts for this, I've proven my point several times.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

^ Your facts are dead wrong, as already discussed.

Jem'hadar do a lot more than man consoles, the Jem'Hadar in "Rocks and Shoals" were dying of withdrawl, and a Jem'Hadar elder is 20 years old. Twenty, not 8.

Which jem'hadar elder? From on-screen canon, NOT trek lit, Marie1.

PS - "Your facts are dead wrong, as already discussed."
Marie1, depite your best efforts, you failed to even begin to prove your statement.

For crying out loud- as indolover says, In To the Death we learn that a Jem'hadar elder = 20 years and we saw one in One Little Ship- and they were episodes not books!!

I don't even need my best efforts for this, I've proven my point several times.

What jem'hadar we saw in 'To the death' was established as being 20 years old, Marie1?
Or in 'One little ship'?

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

*facepalm*
The Jem'hadar elder was in One Little Ship. This guy: link

His name was Ixtana'Rax.


Interestingly "The script of "In Purgatory's Shadow" identified Ikat'ika as an Honored Elder."
Source.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Marie1
"The Jem'hadar elder" "as an Honored Elder."

Yes - elder. That's an imprecise term when it comes to denote the age of a person.
For a human, it means everything from 60 to 100 years old.
For jem'hadar, it could mean beyond 15 years, it could mean beyond 20 years.

But, let's say two 20 year old jem'hadar appeared on screen. It doesn't really matter for my original point, which was:

"Technically, every jem'hadar we saw on screen was a child"
"Few lived so much (to become elders - 20 years, then). As expected from a cannon-fodder species."

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Marie1
"The Jem'hadar elder" "as an Honored Elder."

Yes - elder. That's an imprecise term when it comes to denote the age.
It could mean beyond 15 years, it could mean beyond 20 years.

But, let's say two 20 year old jem'hadar appeared on screen. It doesn't really matter for my original point, which was:

"Technically, every jem'hadar we saw on screen was a child"
"Few lived so much (to become elders - 20 years, then). As expected from a cannon-fodder species."

It is not an imprecise term, as stated directly in "To the Death" a Jem'Hadar who reaches 20 is considered an elder by definition! And your statement is still false- a lot of the Jem'hadar we saw on screen were not children, though the ones in the ships we didn't see, especially the AQ Jem'Hadar in the ships, would have to have been. But we don't even learn about them, and they weren't in action hardly, until "One Little Ship."

Have you even watch the show? Or at least look at the links that prove it??

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Marie1
"As stated directly in "To the Death"", few jem'hadar live beyond the age of 15. This is the age of children, Marie1.

Which directly translates to:
"Technically, every jem'hadar we saw on screen was a child"
"Few lived so much (to become elders - 20 years, then). As expected from a cannon-fodder species."

"Have you even watch the show?"
Cute. Same back to you, Marie1.

Of course, in your case, the question is:
Have you ever watched the show without rosy coloured glasses on where the jem'hadar are concerned, Marie1? - I have no doubt you watched the jem'hadar episodes a few dozen times each.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

Marie1
"As stated directly in "To the Death"", few jem'hadar live beyond the age of 15. This is the age of children, Marie1.

Not exactly, as seen in DS9 with Worf's son Alexander, Klingons are full adult by their early teens. On Voyager with the Ocampa like Kes full maturity occurs by the second year.

Not everyone on Star Trek is human.

from "To The Death" (about 35 minute in).

DAX: How old are you?

VIRAK'KARA: I am eight.

DAX: I would've guessed at least fifteen.

VIRAK'KARA: Few Jem'Hadar live that long. If we reach twenty we are considered Honoured Elders. How old are you?

DAX: I stopped counting at three hundred.

VIRAK'KARA: You don't look it.

DAX: Thank you.

The Jem'Hadar are adults within their first year, they mature quickly. At eight years of age, Virak'Kara would appear to be the equivalency of a Human mid-twenty-something year old man. And has been a full grown adult within his species and culture for approximately seven years.

Virak'Kara is approaching middle age.

.

 

[Marie1]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

^ One of my favourite scenes!!!

ProtoAvatar:
You asked for evidence directly from episodes of the show. I provided them to you, even with external links. If you still want to have your own views contrary to what was shown onscreen, more power to you.

But I go with what I saw and heard on the show given that it's a fictional species.

A human of 7 may be a human child, but a Jem'Hadar isn't really a child at all after about a month of life.

The Jem'hadar "child" that looked to be about 10 years old by human standards was 2 weeks old (The Abandonned). By whatever age he was when he left DS9, he had combat skills and a ton of knowledge, and therefore isn't technically a child. So, if he wasn't at less than a year, I don't consider a four year old or an 8 year old Jem'Hadar a child either.

And a dozen is a conservative estimate... I've watched those episodes a lot...

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Would The Federation force the Founders to give up their God statu

You asked for evidence directly from episodes of the show. I provided them to you, even with external links. If you still want to have your own views contrary to what was shown onscreen, more power to you.

What are you talking about, Marie1?
In 'To to the death', the jem'hadar elders are, indeed, established with a general age of 20 - I admitted that a few posts ago.
But also, it is established that few jem'hadar live beyond 15.

A human of 7 may be a human child, but a Jem'Hadar isn't really a child at all after about a month of life.

That's a matter of criteria used.
A child is usually defined by his age, not by the amount of knowledge he posesses.


As for the jem'hadar - by the time they're 15 years old, most are dead - and NOT due to old age.
They die in battle or because some vorta is feeling cranky and decides to snuff some jem'hadar who looked at him the wrong way.
In 15 years, out of harvests numbering millions of jem'hadar, only a handful remain.

The jem'hadar are a cannon fodder species, utterly expendable, treated like replaceable trash by the vorta and the founders.
And the jem'hadar like this treatement. As I already said, Marie1 - "The jem'hadar are the founders' bitches and they like it".