Why the hate for Disco?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by David Hanley, Feb 21, 2021.

  1. Jadeb

    Jadeb Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    That’s right — thank you for the correction. I can’t say cut-and-paste bothers me too much, but neither do reused matte paintings and establishing shots.

    If anything, I tend to think the generous budgets are fueling storytelling bloat. The big bucks make it possible to do these universe-shattering stakes, which drive the breathless storytelling that is responsible for a lot of the issues we’ve seen in modern Trek’s serialized approach.

    Looking back over the Trek films, bigger budgets clearly don’t always make for better movies.
     
  2. Ianburns252

    Ianburns252 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2021
    Maybe it is just me, but the concept of a fleet of one class of ship feels more realistic to me, certainly from a practicality of production stand point.

    We have spent years seeing non Fed races and organisations use 3 or 4 classes tops but produce them in their thousands whereas the Fed seem to have hundreds of classes but it's like they roll a d20 to decide how many to make.
     
    Agony_Boothb likes this.
  3. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 7, 2011
    Location:
    Aug 10, 1999
    It reminds me of when my father became obsessed with the Ford Taurus. We had four of them at one point, around the time I started driving. One for each family member who could drive. He was that big of a fan of them and he was the one making the purchases, so...

    It might be realistic. But sometimes realistic is ridiculous.
     
    nightwind1 likes this.
  4. Ianburns252

    Ianburns252 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2021
    I get what you mean. My contra to that would be to look at the ubiquity of the Honda Civic - its a good car, reliable as all hell, versatile and lasts for time so mass production makes sense.

    I guess my point was (other then budget saying variety in enemy/non fed ships can't stretch) does everyone else love a huge homogenous fleet and we want a handful of everything.

    One could argue that the idea is that each is heavily specialised but that then gets in to the fact that it would make more sense for each ship to go around with 2 or 3 support ships with their own specialisms.

    Possibly taking this thread off topic though so I'll ease up
     
  5. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    Annoyed by inappropriate use of the word "Need"
    Yes, in my opinion. Copy and paste fleets (ridiculous term but I'll roll) makes sense to me. After all, in TOS and in fan productions, it was pretty much that way, or swapping out various Constitution components to create different classes. So, it's either copy and paste elements (nacelles, saucers, deflector dishes) or whole ships.

    Matte paintings are harder for me to swallow. They all look the same and it is a brief moment of being taken out of the show because I roll my eyes at seeing the exact same establishing shot on the planet and assuming it must look different. I get that budgets are tight, I get that it is a TV show, I get that suspension of disbelief is different for all, but the matte paintings always stood out to me, and really created a blurring effect to trying to watch TNG.
     
    nightwind1 and antinoos like this.
  6. Jadeb

    Jadeb Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2017
    I can get that. I tend to think that matte painting re-use is something you notice once you’re a real fan and watch the episodes repeatedly, but I can imagine that sort of thing becomes more conspicuous when binge-watching.

    The Picard copy-n-paste, though, is conspicuous because of excess. It just seemed silly, and it wouldn’t have been nearly as noticeable had they not hit paste so many times. That scene jarred me way more than seeing the Enterprise orbiting a slightly differently colored planet.
     
  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    Annoyed by inappropriate use of the word "Need"
    Mileage will vary. I was not a huge TNG fan (still am not) but the one thing that sticks in my mind is the reused matte painting. I would be channel surfing (ask you parents, kids) and it would be cutting back from commercial to TNG and I would have to take a few minutes because the establishing shot was that matte painting of a city or fortress type thing that I had seen a handful of times before. It immediately induced eye-rolling and I'm already distracted in the episode.

    With Picard's fleet I can find an in universe justification. In fact, it's far more plausible to me than the same building or architecture being used on various planets.

    Again, mileage will strongly vary.
     
  8. eschaton

    eschaton Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2017
    I mean, everything which is semi-decent has these issues now. Look at the two Disney MCU series so far - WandaVision and The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Both of them were much, much stronger when it came to character writing in the mid season, but had unsatisfying finales because they felt they had to dip into "action mode" - which stripped away everything which made the storytelling different.

    Basically, it feels to me while there are dozens of ways to do interesting drama, Hollywood has decided there's only one way to do gripping action - and that every genre series with a decent budget has to do it that way.
     
    Jadeb likes this.
  9. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2001
    Location:
    The Wormhole
    The fact that Riker's fleet in the Picard finale was the same ship copy and pasted over and over again never bothered me. What did bother me was that there were so many ships. All season they had been making a point that the destruction of Mars severely crippled Starfleet's ability to build ships, then in the finale we see two hundred of what are described in dialogue as Starfleet's newest and most advanced
     
  10. Amaris

    Amaris Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    True. I forgive them for it, though. They wanted a slam bang finish for the first season, and I figured it was for the starship crowd. They already gave me some really good characterizations, so I didn't mind the spotlight being shared.
     
    nightwind1 likes this.
  11. Agony_Boothb

    Agony_Boothb Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    Location:
    previously Mickmike
    I wasn't being critical, just trying to point out how fiscal 90's trek had to be in order to produce 26 episodes a season.

    And for what its worth, i didnt have an issue with the fleet in Picard. Would i have loved more diverse ships, sure. But for me it was all about Riker. He could have shown up in a dumpster and i would have squeed.
     
    nightwind1, Jadeb and Amaris like this.
  12. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    That's why Riker should have showed up in just one ship - the Enterprise-F (but not that thing from STO...something bigger and more badass; something that could take on an entire fleet of Romulan warbirds all by itself.)
     
  13. Ianburns252

    Ianburns252 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2021
    That in itself it pushing the suspension of disbelief beyond what the majority will stomach.

    The Fed have never been shown to have individual ships that can take on entire fleets single handedly.

    If the Fed is now building Borg Cube level ships, in terms of their destructive capability then where are the stakes?
     
  14. Agony_Boothb

    Agony_Boothb Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    Location:
    previously Mickmike
    Voyager went toe to toe with a Borg Tactical Cube which basically has the strength of a fleet of ships. That was the moment Voyager jumped the shark for me.
     
  15. Ianburns252

    Ianburns252 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2021
    That is a fair point about Voyager.

    I know individual ships have been shown to deal tremendous damage to multiple enemy ships but it was rare and through tactics and guile rather than power.

    I can't remember properly but I thought Voy against the Tac Cube had some convoluted loophole to level the playing field although forgive me if I have misremembered - it wouldn't be the first time and certainly won't be the last.
     
  16. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    I’m not sure what the problem is. It’s been over two decades since the last time we saw the TNG prime universe. There could have been significant advances in starship tech during that time. And if Starfleet could build a supership capable of taking on entire fleets, then they wouldn’t have had to build a ton of individual ships, solving the issue @The Wormhole brought up.
     
  17. Ianburns252

    Ianburns252 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2021
    Conversely there have been two decades since we saw the TNG PU so wouldn't one expect other races to have similarly advanced?

    I'm not saying it is impossible though so not fair to stop speculation
     
  18. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2007
    Location:
    Maryland, USA
    I’m pretty sure the destruction of Romulus put a damper on starship advancement for them, especially since they had years of warning about their sun going nova and they still couldn’t save the majority of their population.

    Where did I say that you couldn’t speculate?
     
  19. Ianburns252

    Ianburns252 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2021
    Fair point on the Roms. They should be hampered.

    On the speculation point that was directed at me rather than you so apologies for the vagueness of the statement.
     
  20. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2014
    Location:
    Annoyed by inappropriate use of the word "Need"
    It's not like Starfleet would stop producing starships nor would they not feel the pressing need to make as many as possible to avoid being caught like they were.