Why the hate for Disco?

[Jadeb]

Yes, in my opinion. Copy and paste fleets (ridiculous term but I'll roll) makes sense to me. After all, in TOS and in fan productions, it was pretty much that way, or swapping out various Constitution components to create different classes. So, it's either copy and paste elements (nacelles, saucers, deflector dishes) or whole ships.

Matte paintings are harder for me to swallow. They all look the same and it is a brief moment of being taken out of the show because I roll my eyes at seeing the exact same establishing shot on the planet and assuming it must look different. I get that budgets are tight, I get that it is a TV show, I get that suspension of disbelief is different for all, but the matte paintings always stood out to me, and really created a blurring effect to trying to watch TNG.

I can get that. I tend to think that matte painting re-use is something you notice once you’re a real fan and watch the episodes repeatedly, but I can imagine that sort of thing becomes more conspicuous when binge-watching.

The Picard copy-n-paste, though, is conspicuous because of excess. It just seemed silly, and it wouldn’t have been nearly as noticeable had they not hit paste so many times. That scene jarred me way more than seeing the Enterprise orbiting a slightly differently colored planet.

 

[fireproof78]

I can get that. I tend to think that matte painting re-use is something you notice once you’re a real fan and watch the episodes repeatedly, but I can imagine that sort of thing becomes more conspicuous when binge-watching.

The Picard copy-n-paste, though, is conspicuous because of excess. It just seemed silly, and it wouldn’t have been nearly as noticeable has they not hit paste so many times. That scene jarred me way more than seeing the Enterprise orbiting a slightly differently colored planet.

Mileage will vary. I was not a huge TNG fan (still am not) but the one thing that sticks in my mind is the reused matte painting. I would be channel surfing (ask you parents, kids) and it would be cutting back from commercial to TNG and I would have to take a few minutes because the establishing shot was that matte painting of a city or fortress type thing that I had seen a handful of times before. It immediately induced eye-rolling and I'm already distracted in the episode.

With Picard's fleet I can find an in universe justification. In fact, it's far more plausible to me than the same building or architecture being used on various planets.

Again, mileage will strongly vary.

 

[eschaton]

If anything, I tend to think the generous budgets are fueling storytelling bloat. The big bucks make it possible to do these universe-shattering stakes, which drive the breathless storytelling that is responsible for a lot of the issues we’ve seen in modern Trek’s serialized approach.

I mean, everything which is semi-decent has these issues now. Look at the two Disney MCU series so far - WandaVision and The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Both of them were much, much stronger when it came to character writing in the mid season, but had unsatisfying finales because they felt they had to dip into "action mode" - which stripped away everything which made the storytelling different.

Basically, it feels to me while there are dozens of ways to do interesting drama, Hollywood has decided there's only one way to do gripping action - and that every genre series with a decent budget has to do it that way.

 

[The Wormhole]

The fact that Riker's fleet in the Picard finale was the same ship copy and pasted over and over again never bothered me. What did bother me was that there were so many ships. All season they had been making a point that the destruction of Mars severely crippled Starfleet's ability to build ships, then in the finale we see two hundred of what are described in dialogue as Starfleet's newest and most advanced

 

[Amaris]

The fact that Riker's fleet in the Picard finale was the same ship copy and pasted over and over again never bothered me. What did bother me was that there were so many ships. All season they had been making a point that the destruction of Mars severely crippled Starfleet's ability to build ships, then in the finale we see two hundred of what are described in dialogue as Starfleet's newest and most advanced

True. I forgive them for it, though. They wanted a slam bang finish for the first season, and I figured it was for the starship crowd. They already gave me some really good characterizations, so I didn't mind the spotlight being shared.

 

[Agony_Boothb]

Was the reuse of matte paintings and establishing shots worse than the copy-n-paste fleet Discovery gave us?

I wasn't being critical, just trying to point out how fiscal 90's trek had to be in order to produce 26 episodes a season.

And for what its worth, i didnt have an issue with the fleet in Picard. Would i have loved more diverse ships, sure. But for me it was all about Riker. He could have shown up in a dumpster and i would have squeed.

 

[Dukhat]

The fact that Riker's fleet in the Picard finale was the same ship copy and pasted over and over again never bothered me. What did bother me was that there were so many ships. All season they had been making a point that the destruction of Mars severely crippled Starfleet's ability to build ships, then in the finale we see two hundred of what are described in dialogue as Starfleet's newest and most advanced

That's why Riker should have showed up in just one ship - the Enterprise-F (but not that thing from STO...something bigger and more badass; something that could take on an entire fleet of Romulan warbirds all by itself.)

 

[Weyoun 251]

That's why Riker should have showed up in just one ship - the Enterprise-F (but not that thing from STO...something bigger and more badass; something that could take on an entire fleet of Romulan warbirds all by itself.)

That in itself it pushing the suspension of disbelief beyond what the majority will stomach.

The Fed have never been shown to have individual ships that can take on entire fleets single handedly.

If the Fed is now building Borg Cube level ships, in terms of their destructive capability then where are the stakes?

 

[Agony_Boothb]

The Fed have never been shown to have individual ships that can take on entire fleets single handedly.

Voyager went toe to toe with a Borg Tactical Cube which basically has the strength of a fleet of ships. That was the moment Voyager jumped the shark for me.

 

[Weyoun 251]

Voyager went toe to toe with a Borg Tactical Cube which basically has the strength of a fleet of ships. That was the moment Voyager jumped the shark for me.

That is a fair point about Voyager.

I know individual ships have been shown to deal tremendous damage to multiple enemy ships but it was rare and through tactics and guile rather than power.

I can't remember properly but I thought Voy against the Tac Cube had some convoluted loophole to level the playing field although forgive me if I have misremembered - it wouldn't be the first time and certainly won't be the last.

 

[Dukhat]

That in itself it pushing the suspension of disbelief beyond what the majority will stomach.

The Fed have never been shown to have individual ships that can take on entire fleets single handedly.

If the Fed is now building Borg Cube level ships, in terms of their destructive capability then where are the stakes?

I’m not sure what the problem is. It’s been over two decades since the last time we saw the TNG prime universe. There could have been significant advances in starship tech during that time. And if Starfleet could build a supership capable of taking on entire fleets, then they wouldn’t have had to build a ton of individual ships, solving the issue @The Wormhole brought up.

 

[Weyoun 251]

I’m not sure what the problem is. It’s been over two decades since the last time we saw the TNG prime universe. There could have been significant advances in starship tech during that time. And if Starfleet could build a supership capable of taking on entire fleets, then they wouldn’t have had to build a ton of individual ships, solving the issue @The Wormhole brought up.

Conversely there have been two decades since we saw the TNG PU so wouldn't one expect other races to have similarly advanced?

I'm not saying it is impossible though so not fair to stop speculation

 

[Dukhat]

Conversely there have been two decades since we saw the TNG PU so wouldn't one expect other races to have similarly advanced?

I’m pretty sure the destruction of Romulus put a damper on starship advancement for them, especially since they had years of warning about their sun going nova and they still couldn’t save the majority of their population.

I'm not saying it is impossible though so not fair to stop speculation

Where did I say that you couldn’t speculate?

 

[Weyoun 251]

I’m pretty sure the destruction of Romulus put a damper on starship advancement for them, especially since they had years of warning about their sun going nova and they still couldn’t save the majority of their population.



Where did I say that you couldn’t speculate?

Fair point on the Roms. They should be hampered.

On the speculation point that was directed at me rather than you so apologies for the vagueness of the statement.

 

[fireproof78]

It's not like Starfleet would stop producing starships nor would they not feel the pressing need to make as many as possible to avoid being caught like they were.

 

[cooleddie74]

The Dominion War probably forced Starfleet to open new orbital construction facilities simply to make up for even a portion of what it lost in less than three years. So I could see Admirals going: "Yeah, fifty of this one ship might seem like overkill given how young the class is but this way we won't be caught with our pants down if the Romulan refugees, resurgent Breen or a new splinter group of Klingons decide to come looking for the Federation, blaming us for what state they're in."

 

[fireproof78]

The Dominion War probably forced Starfleet to open new orbital construction facilities simply to make up for even a portion of what it lost in less than three years. So I could see Admirals going: "Yeah, fifty of this one ship might seem like overkill given how young the class is but this way we won't be caught with our pants down if the Romulan refugees, resurgent Breen or a new splinter group of Klingons decide to come looking for the Federation, blaming us for what state they're in."

Yup. I would find it a more unbelievable idea that they would go "Shrug...I guess we'll just keep making ships at a slower rate and not possibly respond to this crisis."

 

[cooleddie74]

U.S. ship construction stayed much higher than it was in 1940 when it came to the postwar and Cold War period. We learned lessons about not being ready for Pearl Harbor and the war in the Pacific and though our production rate was never again the same as between 1942 and 1945 we were far more ready for international crises after the Second World War because we had a much bigger and more lethal peacetime navy.

 

[dupersuper]

I find the DS9 vs. DSC Argument much more frustrating. And I'll tell you why. I think we're on the same page about how Humanity isn't as pristine as Gene's Vision would have us believe. And both shows agree that it's hard to maintain something like the Federation. So it's not the philosophy we're arguing. It's "well that show did it this way and this show does it that way!"

While I find people equating DS9 and Discovery just because they're both "dark" to be frustrating.

 

[Lord Garth]

While I find people equating DS9 and Discovery just because they're both "dark" to be frustrating.

Dark and serialized.
Having minorities in lead roles.
Aren't afraid to change their status quos.
Aren't afraid of having shady characters with disturbing pasts.
Aren't afraid to shake up the Quadrant or Galaxy.

The two shows have more in common than Niners who don't like Discovery want to admit.

Two areas that DSC ups DS9 are:
DS9 was mostly a sausage-fest, while DSC has far more female representation.
Free from Rick Berman's grip (and yes, it was a grip), DSC can freely show LGBTQIA.

One area that DS9 ups DSC is:
DS9 delved into religion as much as it could, while DSC barely gave it lip-service.

I can go on if you like, but I have to get a Covid Vaccination soon. Don't want to miss the appointment.