Why is toxic fandom destroying everything?

[theenglish]

I always felt bad for Skyler in those first seasons. She was trying to keep her family together. What people seem to ignore was that Walter was always "bad" as we learned in a flashback episode in one of the later seasons. That was the episode that forced us to go back and re-evaluate what we had believed about him early on. After that episode and watched the one where he killed Jane. Brilliant acting on Bryan Cranston's part. We believe he is still a nice guy a heart and he's feeling remorse for what he's done, but on a rewatch of the series that is not what he's feeling at all. Skylar knew the entire time what her husband was capable of.

 

[Anwar]

I always felt bad for Skyler in those first seasons. She was trying to keep her family together. What people seem to ignore was that Walter was always "bad" as we learned in a flashback episode in one of the later seasons. That was the episode that forced us to go back and re-evaluate what we had believed about him early on. After that episode and watched the one where he killed Jane. Brilliant acting on Bryan Cranston's part. We believe he is still a nice guy a heart and he's feeling remorse for what he's done, but on a rewatch of the series that is not what he's feeling at all. Skylar knew the entire time what her husband was capable of.

That's the thing, we didn't learn all that stuff until much later and by then Skyler's bad writing had taken root too firmly for certain audience members.

It's down to VInce Gilligan just sucking with women.

 

[Toasted Quarterback]

It's dirty, but it's not a secret, that some of TV's greatest antiheroes are admired too much by some of their greatest fans. Tony Soprano felt more for a dying horse than he did with a dead stripper beaten to death by his underling, who was responsible for both deaths. While the horse WAS beautiful, that death alone made Tony beat the killer dead.

 

[Forbin]

Man, watching Sopranos toward the end felt like being trapped in a bad relationship. We couldn't stop watching, but we hated everybody. Except Adriana, and what happened to her made us hate everybody ten times worse.

 

[theenglish]

Man, watching Sopranos toward the end felt like being trapped in a bad relationship. We couldn't stop watching, but we hated everybody. Except Adriana, and what happened to her made us hate everybody ten times worse.

I remember this great scene that comes at the very end of the second season where Tony is at a family function, Meadows graduation, and the camera flashes scenes of different people he's murdered over soft music.

 

[Toasted Quarterback]

Man, watching Sopranos toward the end felt like being trapped in a bad relationship. We couldn't stop watching, but we hated everybody. Except Adriana, and what happened to her made us hate everybody ten times worse.

I loved Paulie ever since he felt the poison ivy. And Melfi is certainly more principled than most. Tony, Junior.....ugh. He didn't seem to be acting on the same level, if at all. The actor had some difficult moments during the show and after.

 

[suarezguy]

I rarely post here, but I've read posts here almost every day for years. I searched but couldn't find any thread on this topic.

WHY are toxic fans ruining everything? At least it seems like everything. The Acolyte, Doctor Who, Rings of Power, The Marvels, you name it. I avoid spoilers on things, but it seems like in my social media feeds now almost everything I see is 'toxic fans' and 'toxic fans' that. The major genre media fan sites also often post articles. I don't know if posting links would violate board rules, but it feels like I could have 500 links to news articles about toxic fans. It's like every day.

I read comic books for years, and enjoyed the long form storytelling. I can't believe I lived to see comic book films take over the culture. It was like a good 10 year run. And now toxic fans have killed it? I guess if it's not straight white male, then they hate it.

Really not sure what is really the line between toxic fandom and just critical/complaining fandom, complaining fandom being very pervasive for at least decades and really to be expected.

I think we have seen a lot more criticism/complaints/negativity as there have been predominance of so many new releases just being series/franchises sequels, remakes, reboots and for long-running series/franchises. When a series has gone for 15 years straight or has had or is coming up to its 8th, 9th, 10th film and/or to its 3 or 4 remake or reboot of course a lot of people are going to feel and express that it's had a lot of decline. Around, after 2002 when Trek had been going for 15 years straight and had had 10 movies a lot of people said of course fans are less satisfied and more complaining, disagreeing, that's a ridiculous time to go on, ridiculous amount of saturation, now that level is seen as really not unusual.

And especially when the newer are either too same-y or too different, too arguably INO, there will especially be arguments about whether the older version is better or the newer version is better, not a lot of people actually really loving both and a lot of bashing of the older from fans of the new as well as vice versa.

They don't argue or discuss, they scream. Throw tantrums. Their biggest selling point for their issues will always be 'my childhood is now ruined because *insert different take on popular part of specific fandom* is different and they MUST change it back to make me happy again'.

Not sure (do tend to not seek out the the most extreme/vitriolic criticism) but I think at least some of the vitriol has decreased, at least numerically even if it is as or more intense in smaller amounts. I think ca 2004 a lot of people were declaring the Star Wars prequels were not just bad but terrible, worst movies ever, now people most people who dislike the sequels still dislike the prequels, don't claim or pretend the sequels are their first really big disappointment, rare to see a lot of even really widely disliked films be called worst ever/one of the worst ever.

I think it is also a lot more common now for even big fans/geeks to when they really dislike an installment to just actually not watch any more made so don't comment more (though they will occasionally still complain, long after, about the one that caused them to quit).

 

[suarezguy]

I read comic books for years, and enjoyed the long form storytelling. I can't believe I lived to see comic book films take over the culture. It was like a good 10 year run. And now toxic fans have killed it?

I think there is a pretty interesting, comparable comparison between TNG Trek 1987 to 2002 and MCU 2008 to 2023, going from this genre is real rare despite a few exception to it's been going on, driven to the ground, for 15/20 years, it can feel like pretty quickly went from it's real rare and great to it's (been) way too much for way too long.

I don't do a lot of social media, so it's outta mind, outta sight for me.

I see a lot of It's cool/It's great posts, and at least a bit of The Critics Have Complained About Everything Every Time (so don't take them seriously) on my social media.

 

[theenglish]

Really not sure what is really the line between toxic fandom and just critical/complaining fandom, complaining fandom being very pervasive for at least decades and really to be expected.

I think the line is crossed when people are complaining as a large (or very vocal) group about aspects in a discriminatory way. Things such as:

Vote bombing the Hugos a few years back so non-white/non-male authors get fewer votes (which backfired spectacularly)
Complaining about Ms. Marvel well in advance of the movie because Bree Larson had the nerve to express her opinion at a press conference.
Michael B Jordan (and previously Jessica Alba) shouldn't be cast the FF movie because of skin color.

And then people justifying these choices with legitimate criticisms of the movie. Maybe if people saw a movie and started with legitimate comments?

I could go on for pages, but that's the idea.

 

[Toasted Quarterback]

And then people justifying these choices with legitimate criticisms of the movie. Maybe if people saw a movie and started with legitimate comments?

Who thought having the Billy Elliott actor playing Ben Grimm was a feasible notion?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I think the line is crossed when people are complaining as a large (or very vocal) group about aspects in a discriminatory way. Things such as:

Vote bombing the Hugos a few years back so non-white/non-male authors get fewer votes (which backfired spectacularly)
Complaining about Ms. Marvel well in advance of the movie because Bree Larson had the nerve to express her opinion at a press conference.
Michael B Jordan (and previously Jessica Alba) shouldn't be cast the FF movie because of skin color.

Another example of toxic fandom taken to an extreme: this board witnessed one member accusing the Academy Awards of giving a Best Supporting Actor statue to Heath Ledger for his Joker role in The Dark Knight "only" because the Academy had a "gay agenda" in wanting to give it to Ledger for Brokeback Mountain, but caved out of some unintelligible fear, so they awarded the same man for the Joker role, which was a double-edged act of extremist toxic fandom. One, the homophobic accusation of a "gay agenda" at the Academy Awards, and two, this member's well-known hatred of DC movies, and the resentment that a DC film earned one of the biggest awards no MCU film has to date. That is toxic obsession and utterly disrespectful to a deceased man, all for the hatred of another comic book film series.

 

[Ríu ríu chíu]

Man, watching Sopranos toward the end felt like being trapped in a bad relationship. We couldn't stop watching, but we hated everybody. Except Adriana, and what happened to her made us hate everybody ten times worse.

About the ending, BTW...

Spoiler

Obviously the guy in the Members Only jacket was there to whack Tony. I just hope the guy doesn't go after the rest of the family who happened to be sitting there.

 

[Toasted Quarterback]

Another example of toxic fandom taken to an extreme: this board witnessed one member accusing the Academy Awards of giving a Best Supporting Actor statue to Heath Ledger for his Joker role in The Dark Knight "only" because the Academy had a "gay agenda" in wanting to give it to Ledger for Brokeback Mountain, but caved out of some unintelligible fear-------

After nominating Jaye Davidson, John Lithgow, William Hurt, Dustin Hoffman and Jon Voight, Dirk Bogarde, Philip Seymour Hoffman and many more over the decades for similar roles? (Not to mention all the wins or nominations for Jack Nicholson, if Steve Martin's joke about him is true?) What kaka.

 

[TedShatner10]

That's the thing, we didn't learn all that stuff until much later and by then Skyler's bad writing had taken root too firmly for certain audience members.

It's down to VInce Gilligan just sucking with women.

A less experienced Gilligan in the opening season of BB had problems with writing full nuenced female characters (even so the online fanboi venom directed at Skyler with hindsight still seemed oddly intense and outsized, next to truly evil or destructive characters like Walter and Gus, etc).

Now, the worst of online toxic fandom will have the support of the MAGA dominated state.

I'm now glad I've buying NuTrek shows on bluray (I'm getting irrationally fearful they'll destroy entertainment as part of a mad media censorship purity spiral).

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

After nominating Jaye Davidson, John Lithgow, William Hurt, Dustin Hoffman and Jon Voight, Dirk Bogarde, Philip Seymour Hoffman and many more over the decades for similar roles? (Not to mention all the wins or nominations for Jack Nicholson, if Steve Martin's joke about him is true?) What kaka.

Indeed, but that's the nonsensical theory a certain board member aggressively concocted / pushed.

 

[Anwar]

A less experienced Gilligan in the opening season of BB had problems with writing full nuenced female characters (even so the online fanboi venom directed at Skyler with hindsight still seemed oddly intense and outsized, next to truly evil or destructive characters like Walter and Gus, etc).

At the time the hated really set it, Walt was still portrayed as a reluctant Anti-Hero more than anything. The writers didn't start making him more full on villain till Season 3. By that point all of Skyler's bad writing had made the fanboys too against her to reconsider.

Now, the worst of online toxic fandom will have the support of the MAGA dominated state.

Oh yes....

 

[TedShatner10]

It's dirty, but it's not a secret, that some of TV's greatest antiheroes are admired too much by some of their greatest fans. Tony Soprano felt more for a dying horse than he did with a dead stripper beaten to death by his underling, who was responsible for both deaths. While the horse WAS beautiful, that death alone made Tony beat the killer dead.

Millions of angry male audience members are horribly media illiterate at best and at worst identify a bit too much with the villain protagonist (with The Boys, you have absolute fools who ironically think Homelander is the hero and in The Man In The High Castle you have similar edgelord halfwits proclaim John Smith as "cool").

And in the vein of truly tragic, moved to tears supporting female characters of The Sopranos' Adrianna and Breaking Bad's Jane & Andrea, you have skin crawling creeps who had no sympathy at all for Rachel Brosnahan's prostitute character from the US version of House Of Cards.

 

[Anwar]

Millions of angry male audience members are horribly media illiterate at best and at worst identify a bit too much with the villain protagonist (with The Boys, you have absolute fools who ironically think Homelander is the hero and in The Man In The High Castle you have similar edgelord halfwits proclaim John Smith as "cool").

And in the vein of truly tragic, moved to tears supporting female characters of The Sopranos' Adrianna and Breaking Bad's Jane & Andrea, you have skin crawling creeps who had no sympathy at all for Rachel Brosnahan's prostitute character from the US version of House Of Cards.

Gangster stories almost always have this problem

The Godfather was supposed to be a story about the horrors of Organized Crime and how racist and misogynistic the whole setup was. But instead because Coppola made them all look so classy and cool, it made people develop a big fascination with "Classy Mobsters" and real Mobsters started modeling themselves on Vito.

 

[fireproof78]

Gangster stories almost always have this problem

The Godfather was supposed to be a story about the horrors of Organized Crime and how racist and misogynistic the whole setup was. But instead because Coppola made them all look so classy and cool, it made people develop a big fascination with "Classy Mobsters" and real Mobsters started modeling themselves on Vito.

Same with the Yakuza and a video game series.


Or pirates in the Pirates of the Caribbean films. People have a fascination with the dark side of human society. They lionize it in a way that creates an ideal picture.

 

[theenglish]

Or Vampires as popularized in the Anne Rice series, and more recently, True Blood and The Vampire Diaries (+ its spin offs).