Yes--I was addressing the discussion within the theme of RotJ. The discussion was really about the mechanics of the universe but whether Anakin deserved to be rewarded at the end of that movie.
Why is toxic fandom destroying everything?
- Thread starter Sgt. Sacrament
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Yes--I was addressing the discussion within the theme of RotJ. The discussion was really about the mechanics of the universe but whether Anakin deserved to be rewarded at the end of that movie.
Because becoming a Force Ghost was a trick only Qui-Gon knew prior to the fall of the Jedi Order, and the only ones he taught were Obi-Wan and Yoda.
But we don't know what being the chosen one means. It's never defined, and doubt is thrown on what the prophecy even means. And by the OT it's largely ignored, save for a passing reference by Obi-Wan to Maul in Rebels. But this idea that the Chosen One has some innate abilities is not born out in the text.
Which is a rather interesting idea given that Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't think Anakin could be saved.
That's why I assumed happened, or Obi-Wan taught him at some point before he died.
But it wasn't a reward, it was just another skill that he was taught. And before the Prequels or Clones revealed that Qui-Gon taught Yoda, it never occurred to me that it would be a "reward' I had just assumed it happened because he had turned back to the light side.
And despite both Obi-Wan and Yoda seeing Anakin as irredeemable, they saw fit to teach him how to do this?
No matter how you slice it, Vader's "Redemption" is hardly "good writing" compared to the stuff about Reva complained about.
That means they did not think he would turn.
They both told Luke Anakin couldn't be rescued from the Dark Side. Luke proved them wrong. Why wouldn't they show Anakin mercy by letting his ghost see his son and daughter be happy?
LOL, bullsh*t. It's good writing in the sense that it gave his character a clear arc and satisfying and definitive ending. He knew the path he was on was irredeemably corrupt, hence his offer to Luke to overthrow his master and rule the galaxy as father and son, but he was too corrupt to return to the noble Jedi way by himself. Addicted to anger because of his hurt and longing, he kept trying to bring Luke down the same path, but, when faced with the choice between watching his master kill his son, and killing his master, he finally found the strength (with, yes, more than a bit of selfishness) to choose the latter, at the cost of his own life.
This is simple stuff, maybe, but remember: Vader only had 34 minutes of total screen time in the OT, and spent most of that time hearing reports, giving orders (and strangling people), and fighting. Again, a clear arc with satisfying and definitive ending.
If this IMDb page is to be believed, Reva gets approximately 37 minutes of screen time in Kenobi S1, and not only are her motivations spectacularly incoherent, her character arc is explicitly in no way resolved: Obi-Wan says "You have chosen not [become Vader]. Who you become now, that is up to you." How much guilt will she feel for her decades of misdeeds, and how much will she ascribe to the toxic patriarchy of the Sith? Will she decide to atone, and if so, will she do so quietly, through inner reflection, or with action? Unless Lucasfilm decides to revisit the character, her arc is objectively incomplete. She goes from trying to kill a child for borderline nonsensical reasons to deciding not to in the span of a few minutes, and then effs off, the end.
It's true that TV characters aren't necessarily intended to have complete arcs the way movie characters in a trilogy are, but even taking that into account, if you think the quality of characterization writing for those two is in any way comparable...
Because it doesn't do justice to the innocent kids he murdered in cold blood.
If this IMDb page is to be believed, Reva gets approximately 37 minutes of screen time in Kenobi S1, and not only are her motivations spectacularly incoherent, her character arc is explicitly in no way resolved: Obi-Wan says "You have chosen not [become Vader]. Who you become now, that is up to you." How much guilt will she feel for her decades of misdeeds, and how much will she ascribe to the toxic patriarchy of the Sith? Will she decide to atone, and if so, will she do so quietly, through inner reflection, or with action? Unless Lucasfilm decides to revisit the character, her arc is objectively incomplete. She goes from trying to kill a child for borderline nonsensical reasons to deciding not to in the span of a few minutes, and then effs off, the end.
It's true that TV characters aren't necessarily intended to have complete arcs the way movie characters in a trilogy are, but even taking that into account, if you think the quality of characterization writing for those two is in any way comparable...
They obviously went in expecting that they wouldn't have everything resolved in the first season and wrote it hoping for more. That it didn't happen immediately wasn't something they were expecting.
It doesn't help that the "fans" have always had issues with nonwhites in SW, with the exception of one or two token characters. Reva was getting hate before the show began.
Anyways, Reva's motives are "I want to kill Vader but the only way I can do it is become part of the Empire. I hate this but it's the only path I see open to me. And if I can also kill the man who trained Vader and failed to kill him when he had the chance, I will do anything to accomplish that."
And then she realizes she can't do "anything to accomplish that" and leaves to wonder what she's become in her quest for revenge.
Quality wise yes.if you think the quality of characterization writing for those two is in any way comparable...
Just because it's open ended doesn't make it less. Especially with the comparable evil done by both character.
"I hate this"? She was all in on torturing innocent child Leia to find Obi-Wan, so she could punish him for... failing to prevent innocent children from being killed. And the whole notion that someone who was deeply conflicted could possibly hope to pull a fast one on a warrior-psychic is, quite frankly, too stupid for words. (Which the show itself confirmed when she impulsively struck at Vader in a rage... and was easily stopped at once. Yep, just great writing all around.
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That's pretty much the Dark Side all over from what I can tell. The road to the Dark Side is often paved with good intentions, but once you get there your darker impulses take over and you betray yourself by becoming what you hate. The Jedi basically write their closest friends off as being permanently lost once they get the yellow eyes and red lightsaber, as they ain't ever snapping out of that. Their morality is no longer an impediment to their increasingly selfish goals (nor is common sense sometimes if the person they want to kill is right there).
But Anakin's selfish goal was to save his kids and when the Dark Side was an opposition to that he fell back to the light. Reva's selfish goal was to punish the monster who stabbed a young Jedi, so when she became that monster it was the one thing she couldn't do. The spell was broken.
Was her arc on Return of the Jedi's level? Lol no, the narrative had its share of flaws. But I thought it made sense in the end and it didn't feel unresolved for me.
I can see that as a factor in the first season (and see how Marie Schrader could be rather flat and irritating), but the backlash or targeting of Anna Gunn by toxic online fandom was still more concentrated & disturbing than it should've been (when her Skyler character was ultimately re-adjusting badly to Walter White's gaslighting and suspicious long absences, then in the last 3rd of the show's story she was unfairly thrust into the position of practically running White's mini-empire).
Vince Gilligan got a blindspot writing female characters on Breaking Bad, but he got better slowly, and improved with Better Call Saul, as demonstrated with Kim Wexler (and Marie Schrader was much better in her short cameo there).
Jane Margolis was pretty good as a relatively minor supporting female character - an erratic and manipulative woman who was ultimately a very tragic, poignant character just unfairly caught up in events (but I think that was maybe more down to Krysten Ritter's onscreen chemistry with Aaron Paul and John DeLancie, than Gilligan's writing).
Yes, but I'm saying it's partly the shows own fault for that and it's very hard for some people to shake off first impressions of characters. Her bad writing spread to the 2nd Season too BTW with the Ted thing.
She wasn't in it enough and then died tragically, that was enough to get viewers to be fine with her.
Which is part of the "What have I become?" thing at the end.
And the whole notion that someone who was deeply conflicted could possibly hope to pull a fast one on a warrior-psychic is, quite frankly, too stupid for words. (Which the show itself confirmed when she impulsively struck at Vader in a rage... and was easily stopped at once. Yep, just great writing all around.
Why not? Vader was thinking the same thing about Palpatine
I've kind of gotten the impression over the years that turning to the Dark Side is kind of like being on some kind of drug. Once you turn you basically lose all self control and give in to all of your darker impulses, but if you can turn back to the Light you're able to regain that self control. I think that is also part of why characters who turn from the Dark Side are so quickly forgiven for what they've done, they weren't really in control of their actions, so they weren't responsible for the things they did.
Palpatine did that for decades."I hate this"? She was all in on torturing innocent child Leia to find Obi-Wan, so she could punish him for... failing to prevent innocent children from being killed. And the whole notion that someone who was deeply conflicted could possibly hope to pull a fast one on a warrior-psychic is, quite frankly, too stupid for words. (Which the show itself confirmed when she impulsively struck at Vader in a rage... and was easily stopped at once. Yep, just great writing all around.
The wrinting around Skyler in the 2nd season could be deemed as unsympathetic and a bit clunky, but even then that felt like a byproduct of Walter White's suspiciously long disappearances from the household (plus the growing emotional distance and gaslighting from Walt that Skyler eventually saw right through by the end of S2).
She wasn't around so long for a long running series like Breaking Bad, but maybe long enough for a feature film; enough of an impression for the audience, and her death permanently impacted the central characters (I cried).
However that said the more toxic wing of BB fandom developed enough of a reputation for extreme sexism when it's the opening gag of this meme clip:
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