Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[TheGodBen]

Heck, even those who consider themselves "haters" can have a change of heart after sitting down and giving it a fair shot. Right, TheGodBen?

Actually, I was going to tear the show apart in that thread, but Akiraprise had pictures of me in my sexy lingerie, so I agreed to go soft on Voyager in order to get them back.

3. Ron Moore did a hatchet job on Voyager and his admirers fell for it.

No. How did he do a hatchet job? In fact, I haven't heard one thing in this thread about Ron Moore being a reason for people criticizing VOY.

I was criticising Voyager long before I realised I was a Ron Moore fanboy. I only started paying attention to writer credits when I got my TNG DVDs back in 2006, and I noticed RDM wrote many of my favourite episodes, and that trend continued when I watched DS9 on DVD later. Two years later, I got into BSG. Several months later, I joined this site, learned about the Moore/Voyager interview, read it, agreed with some of it, but realised that much of it was based in a sense of betrayal he felt at the time, so it's hardly objective.

 

[Admiral Shran]

If the ship was always going to be on the move, then whatever arcs they would've have wouldn't have lasted very long.

Then maybe they shouldn't have constantly been on the move - meaning maybe they shouldn't have made giant leaps of 10,000 or 20,000 light years toward the Alpha Quadrant. If the show was set in the vicinity of the Ocampan homeworld (with Voyager only getting at most a few thousand light years closer to home by the end of the series through normal warp speed) they could have had plenty of story arcs.

It would even solve the "problem" of having the show end with the Female Caretaker. If, after seven years, they weren't that far from the Ocampan homeworld, Suspiria could have easily been brought back without having her cover a vast distance to reach them.

And don't say "The arcs should've been internal", because if they couldn't learn to work together after 1 season it'd be clear they wouldn't be alive much longer.

Ah, we're back to this again huh?

Internal story arcs do not have to involve the crew wanting to kill each other.

 

[kimc]

Heck, even those who consider themselves "haters" can have a change of heart after sitting down and giving it a fair shot. Right, TheGodBen?

Actually, I was going to tear the show apart in that thread, but Akiraprise had pictures of me in my sexy lingerie, so I agreed to go soft on Voyager in order to get them back.

I have no idea what you're talking about and btw you look good in blue.

Yeah, Moore was a bit bitter in that interview and as you watch nuBSG you can see how he was trying hard to be "anti-Trek" - no aliens, no transporters or replicators, etc. I don't agree with all the decisions he made on that show but all the same it was one entertaining ride from start to finish.

As much as I love Voyager I can't say the same about it. To this day I cannot get past "The Void" on my Season 7 box set.

 

[Amasov]

When the show was in production and airing on a weekly basis, it was my favorite Star Trek series. In fact, Voyager was the first Star Trek series I watched from start to finish as it was broadcast. I was too young to start on The Next Generation and I didn't really "get" Deep Space Nine.

My tastes in Star Trek have changed a lot since Voyager ended back in 2001. For one, and I posted about this late last year, I sat down and watched all of Deep Space Nine from beginning to end - having not seen all of it. Once the dust settled, I decided this was my favorite of the contemporary shows. Voyager probably falls in fourth place for me; but that doesn't mean I view it as such.

I was watching the episode "Bliss" last night from the fifth season - a very underrated in my opinion, and I still enjoyed it quite a bit. In the later years when Voyager was producing some fairly subpar episodes, I still felt that it was watchable.

There were elements that I found frustrating; such as the almost complete lack of continuity (would this be right?). There never seemed to be any sort of continuation from previous weeks. The best way to sum this up, remember the second season episode, "Deadlock", where we discover Voyager was split in two - the "real" Voyager being the ship that was torn apart by the other's proton bursts. When the episode ends, we're left with the "real" and unbelievably damaged Voyager, but next week the ship looks like it's fresh out of spacedock.

I remember being shocked back in the fourth season episode "The Gift" that we still saw Voyager equipped with the Borg enhancements from "Scorpion", the previous week. And correct me if I'm wrong, because I always think I am, but wasn't sick bay blown up in "The Killing Game"? And then, there it is, as if nothing ever happened, in the next episode?

That was the big thing for me on Voyager - there were never any consequences to some of the events that took place.

One last thing is that I don't feel the show used its premise to the fullest. You actually see hints of where it could have gone in the early parts of the second episode. First off, you still have the conflict with the Maquis and Starfleet crews, but the other thing that I feel goes unnoticed is the scene in the briefing room. Captain Janeway and the staff are discussing the best ways to preserve their energy resources, but by the time this episode wraps up, all is well on both fronts and are never really a concern again.

I totally agree with what someone said earlier in this thread about how TV grew up, but Voyager did not. That is an excellent way to put it.

 

[exodus]

When the show was in production and airing on a weekly basis, it was my favorite Star Trek series. In fact, Voyager was the first Star Trek series I watched from start to finish as it was broadcast. I was too young to start on The Next Generation and I didn't really "get" Deep Space Nine.

My tastes in Star Trek have changed a lot since Voyager ended back in 2001. For one, and I posted about this late last year, I sat down and watched all of Deep Space Nine from beginning to end - having not seen all of it. Once the dust settled, I decided this was my favorite of the contemporary shows. Voyager probably falls in fourth place for me; but that doesn't mean I view it as such.

I was watching the episode "Bliss" last night from the fifth season - a very underrated in my opinion, and I still enjoyed it quite a bit. In the later years when Voyager was producing some fairly subpar episodes, I still felt that it was watchable.

There were elements that I found frustrating; such as the almost complete lack of continuity (would this be right?). There never seemed to be any sort of continuation from previous weeks. The best way to sum this up, remember the second season episode, "Deadlock", where we discover Voyager was split in two - the "real" Voyager being the ship that was torn apart by the other's proton bursts. When the episode ends, we're left with the "real" and unbelievably damaged Voyager, but next week the ship looks like it's fresh out of spacedock.

I remember being shocked back in the fourth season episode "The Gift" that we still saw Voyager equipped with the Borg enhancements from "Scorpion", the previous week. And correct me if I'm wrong, because I always think I am, but wasn't sick bay blown up in "The Killing Game"? And then, there it is, as if nothing ever happened, in the next episode?

That was the big thing for me on Voyager - there were never any consequences to some of the events that took place.

One last thing is that I don't feel the show used its premise to the fullest. You actually see hints of where it could have gone in the early parts of the second episode. First off, you still have the conflict with the Maquis and Starfleet crews, but the other thing that I feel goes unnoticed is the scene in the briefing room. Captain Janeway and the staff are discussing the best ways to preserve their energy resources, but by the time this episode wraps up, all is well on both fronts and are never really a concern again.

I totally agree with what someone said earlier in this thread about how TV grew up, but Voyager did not. That is an excellent way to put it.

Honestly, I think if Voyager "grew up" and went the way many are asking, it wouldn't be a family show anymore.

Can you really sit down with 6 to 8 year old children and watch nuBSG or B5 and have the same understanding of it as they do with Trek? Trek can be used as a educational tool and has been for decades.

IMO the crew conflict & ship damage isn't important considering Trek gives us back so much more and it's messages will hold up longer and any nuBSG, B5 and most other modern sci-fi. Voyager is still quality programming. I think when you start to view Trek that way, the inconsistancies don't really matter.

 

[Amasov]

Can you really sit down with 6 to 8 year old children and watch nuBSG or B5 and have the same understanding of it as they do with Trek?

I wouldn't know as I don't watch either one of those shows.

 

[Saquist]

Hmm...

PICARD: Think of them as a single, collective being. There's no one Borg who is more an individual than your arm or your leg.

CRUSHER: But if we erase his memory, who he is or who he has become would be destroyed.
RIKER: Isn't that the point? He'd be reassimilated into the hive without any questions.

I, Borg

The Hive Yes....no where does it say Hive Mind.
The very...phase...single/collective...is contradictory. To me this means they share a mind or have the same thoughts. Not that they are controled by a single source.

The many speaking as one IS a Hive Mind. No individuals but the one Voice (all their minds combined) having now become an intelligence unto itself and controlling all the Drones. What happened to Picard shows that the Collective mind forcibly controls those who do not agree with the Collective. Individual suppression.

This debate likely has just become irrelevant but a Hive Mind isn't many speaking as one. The Hive mind is the simile of bees. Hive Mentality which is the control of one individual over all.

There is a difference between a shared consciousness (A Collective) and Singularly controlled entity.

I mean, if this Hive Mentality was correct then the introduction of a queen was just a matter of time.

If ENT had been allowed to be it's own show from the begining they could have taken real risk but the show didn't die because of a lack of risk. It was boring, full of bad acting and uninteresting plots. I think primarily it offended alot of Trek Fans. They slapped some slopp together and fed to us like we wouldn't know the difference.

That's pretty debatable. Most of the "canon violations" weren't canon violations at all.

I think it's fair to say that many were misconceptions.
but it's clear that ENT should never have existed. Never mentioned and always excluded.

TOS wasn't even consistent with itself, the ENT Vulcans aren't really any different from the Vulcans seen in TOS (They WERE all assholes in TOS, except for Spock and Sarek. And Spock had asshole moments too). And the tech wasn't any more advanced than TOS'.

I didn't think you'd actually resort to the "human shield defense" for the ENT. Can't the series be defended on it's own merits without throwing TOS to block for it?

Honestly it's bad to mess with the original series but to then use it to defend yourself...I don't thinkit's honorable. My reasonings follow that understanding TOS was a trailblazer. It was figuring itself out and that is often a less than consistent thread of development. But we're talking about ENT as the Fifth series from the begining. There is a considerable history...established and that is considered sacrosanct among fans. For another series to break what the original series established is to say that TOS was not good enough.

If that's true then start another franchise but to imitate TOS like it did and then presumptuously dismember and modify so as to be unrecognizable...I found it offensive. As an artist my self I feel one should either stay true to original or state plainly the reinvisioning...but never to misrepresent it.

 

[zar]

3. Ron Moore did a hatchet job on Voyager and his admirers fell for it.

No. How did he do a hatchet job? In fact, I haven't heard one thing in this thread about Ron Moore being a reason for people criticizing VOY.

I was criticising Voyager long before I realised I was a Ron Moore fanboy. I only started paying attention to writer credits when I got my TNG DVDs back in 2006, and I noticed RDM wrote many of my favourite episodes, and that trend continued when I watched DS9 on DVD later. Two years later, I got into BSG. Several months later, I joined this site, learned about the Moore/Voyager interview, read it, agreed with some of it, but realised that much of it was based in a sense of betrayal he felt at the time, so it's hardly objective.

And I've never even seen the interview and didn't know Moore had any relationship with Voyager one way or the other.

And don't say "The arcs should've been internal"

The arcs should've been internal.

because if they couldn't learn to work together after 1 season it'd be clear they wouldn't be alive much longer.

Are you listening? All I said was, "The arcs should've been internal". I never said anything implying they shouldn't have learned to work together after 1 season.

Voyager is still quality programming. I think when you start to view Trek that way, the inconsistancies don't really matter.

Who said it wasn't still quality programming? I view all Trek that way, especially when compared to other sci-fi. That doesn't mean I need to be silent about its flaws.

The very...phase...single/collective...is contradictory.

Well Picard was comparing the individual drones to human body parts. A human is a collective of body parts but only a single being.

 

[exodus]

Who said it wasn't still quality programming? I view all Trek that way, especially when compared to other sci-fi. That doesn't mean I need to be silent about its flaws.

How is saying Trek is quality programming an implication someone said it wasn't?

How does my saying the inconsistancies don't matter in larger scale negate your freedom of speech?

 

[Saquist]

Well Picard was comparing the individual drones to human body parts. A human is a collective of body parts but only a single being.

Yeah I know, like I said at this point there is merit for both sides.
I take this side because there was no Queen and they said that there was no queen originally and if there was no Queen then the true concept of a Hive Mind wouldn't be there. Therefore...a Collective Mind/shared consciousness. Too that shared consciousness is overpowering. Once a part of one, one cannot distinguish ones own thoughts from the group mind.

 

[zar]

Who said it wasn't still quality programming? I view all Trek that way, especially when compared to other sci-fi. That doesn't mean I need to be silent about its flaws.

How is saying Trek is quality programming an implication someone said it wasn't?

How does my saying the inconsistancies don't matter in larger scale negate your freedom of speech?

You've been on the other "side" of this debate all along; it's a little late to pretend you're the neutral observer. You replied to Amasov basically saying "it doesn't matter," essentially brushing aside his whole long post. If you don't have a problem with critics and don't think we're challenging VOY's status as quality programming, then why did you say it?

 

[Gaith]

Internal story arcs do not have to involve the crew wanting to kill each other.

Q.F.F#!@*.T.

 

[Anwar]

Well Picard was comparing the individual drones to human body parts. A human is a collective of body parts but only a single being.

Yeah I know, like I said at this point there is merit for both sides.
I take this side because there was no Queen and they said that there was no queen originally and if there was no Queen then the true concept of a Hive Mind wouldn't be there. Therefore...a Collective Mind/shared consciousness. Too that shared consciousness is overpowering. Once a part of one, one cannot distinguish ones own thoughts from the group mind.

The Borg were portrayed as a Hive Mind where the "Voice" WAS their Queen, meaning whatever the "Voice" really was was in fact their Master since BOBW shows that the Borg can force it on others against their will. The Queen simply made it possible to shoot at the "Voice" directly.

What they needed was for every group of Borg to have an Avatar for the Voice, a Borg Cerebrate as it was. That way the Speaking Borg could have a personality and be interesting.

 

[Anwar]

If the ship was always going to be on the move, then whatever arcs they would've have wouldn't have lasted very long.

Then maybe they shouldn't have constantly been on the move - meaning maybe they shouldn't have made giant leaps of 10,000 or 20,000 light years toward the Alpha Quadrant. If the show was set in the vicinity of the Ocampan homeworld (with Voyager only getting at most a few thousand light years closer to home by the end of the series through normal warp speed) they could have had plenty of story arcs.

It would even solve the "problem" of having the show end with the Female Caretaker. If, after seven years, they weren't that far from the Ocampan homeworld, Suspiria could have easily been brought back without having her cover a vast distance to reach them.

If they made so little ground, despite all other Trek shows having them be able to go vast distances with Warp Drive, then the complaints would just be that they weren't doing anything to get home. What could justify them not going very far from the Ocampan homeworld if they knew where Earth was all along?

I mean, sure, Farscape got away with this and no one complained, but VOY is held to such a nasty double standard it begs the question.

Ah, we're back to this again huh?

Internal story arcs do not have to involve the crew wanting to kill each other.

The way the "wasted premise" "so much potential to be more" folk go on, it sure seems like "Internal Story Arcs" DOES mean "Crew all hate each other".

Seriously though, most "internal arcs" like acquiring an external source of resupply, the Fleeters and Maquis learning to accept or at least tolerate one another, Torres controlling/coming to terms with her hybrid nature, Paris getting over being shunned by both groups, etc would eventually resolve themselves.

You can't drag those things out over 7 years.

 

[Harvey]

The way the "wasted premise" "so much potential to be more" folk go on, it sure seems like "Internal Story Arcs" DOES mean "Crew all hate each other".

Only to you, it seems. Personally, I've seen too much of that crap in the first season of Stargate Universe to think a crew that all hate each other has any long-term potential.

It sure would have been nice if Star Trek: Voyager built up a stronger recurring cast, though. As it stands, we didn't get to know the secondary and tertiary characters any better on Star Trek: Voyager than we did on Star Trek: The Next Generation. This seems odd to me, since Voyager was supposed to have a crew (160 at most with the additions of the Maquis) that was a finite and unchanging group, in addition to being much smaller in number than the Enterprise-D.

 

[Anwar]

There are enough complaints of how the primary cast wasn't developed enough. No point in adding lots of background characters in that cast.

And

Personally, I've seen too much of that crap in the first season of Stargate Universe to think a crew that all hate each other has any long-term potential.

FINALLY someone gets it!

 

[Akiraprise]

It's no wonder this forum has the reputation it does. People like you are so fucking scared of anyone bashing their favourite show, you shut down any kind of debate and start threatening people with warnings the minute anyone strays from the "I LOVE VOYAGER!" mantra. Pathetic.

If this were true don't you think this thread would have been shut a long time ago? Threads discussing VOY'S faults are always welcome. The only problem is they usually devolve into nasty bitching fests and get locked.

I've been moderator of a forum before and this thread is nowhere near being worth locking. With due respect you're being ridiculous.

With due respect, it's been on the cusp of a locking for several pages now. It's been so off topic, then on topic, we just decided to let it ride. Heated debate is fine but the majority of this thread is nothing but pissy cyclical arguing between a select few people. Nobody else can get a word in edge wise without having to scroll past page long point by point dissertations. It's not really fun to read.

I've been modding this forum for 4 1/2 years and a poster in it prior to that. I read more than I post now, but it's because I've been in so many of these arguments I don't really have anything else to say on the matter. These kind of threads almost always end in a lock before warnings get handed out. Whether you like VOY or not I think we can all agree it is probably one of the most discussed of the Treks even to this day. The show had so much squandered potential. An excellent premise that could have been executed so much better.

Well if you're really nice to akiraprise he may pose for you.

I was talking about Akiraprise.

I've got something even better than my sexy ass.

Heck, even those who consider themselves "haters" can have a change of heart after sitting down and giving it a fair shot. Right, TheGodBen?

Actually, I was going to tear the show apart in that thread, but Akiraprise had pictures of me in my sexy lingerie, so I agreed to go soft on Voyager in order to get them back.

I have no idea what you're talking about and btw you look good in blue.

kim! shhh... You weren't supposed to tell.

 

[Gepard]

It's not really fun to read.

I disagree; I'm enjoying the hell out of this.

Now excuse me, I have to go put on my "TheGodBen is #1" thong and matching giant foam finger.

 

[Gaith]

It sure would have been nice if Star Trek: Voyager built up a stronger recurring cast, though. As it stands, we didn't get to know the secondary and tertiary characters any better on Star Trek: Voyager than we did on Star Trek: The Next Generation. This seems odd to me, since Voyager was supposed to have a crew (160 at most with the additions of the Maquis) that was a finite and unchanging group, in addition to being much smaller in number than the Enterprise-D.

^ Exactly. There should have been lots of dating, even marriages and several children born. There should have been sports leagues - you don't need to use holodeck energy to have Sciences vs. Engineering badminton matches in a shuttle bay. Why are there no plants in the mess? Why does no one seem to wear civvies (or, if they do, leave their quarters) on off hours? How do people who could otherwise leave their jobs at pretty much any time deal with the thought of holding the same low-level crew jobs for decades? If the Doctor's as competent a medic as any, why doesn't he train a few more full-time doctors, in case his program is somehow damaged on one of his many adventures? Why doesn't the crew pick up a pet? Etc., etc., etc.

There should, in short, have been an entire small town/culture community aspect to the show, not just throwaway lines here and there when the rest of the shows are devoted to meeting the Random Humanoids of the Week. But the fact that none of the main cast, to my knowledge, ever seriously dates anyone outside of the opening credits-named regulars speaks volume about the small-mindedness with which the series was plotted.

There are enough complaints of how the primary cast wasn't developed enough. No point in adding lots of background characters in that cast.

Why can't we complain about both?

Whether you like VOY or not I think we can all agree it is probably one of the most discussed of the Treks even to this day.

Call it the Prequel Trilogy syndrome - pitting the haters vs. the apologists is so much more fun than a chorus of agreement over how awesome the Original Trilogy was; thus, far more time is spent discussing Voyager than the consistently good series.

 

[Akiraprise]

^ True that.