Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[Anwar]

There should, in short, have been an entire small town/culture community aspect to the show, not just throwaway lines here and there when the rest of the shows are devoted to meeting the Random Humanoids of the Week. But the fact that none of the main cast, to my knowledge, ever seriously dates anyone outside of the opening credits-named regulars speaks volume about the small-mindedness with which the series was plotted.

That's because no one in the show, not the producers, not the writers, no one IN the show either (characters) ever believed they were going to be stuck in space for 75 years. No one.

And given how whenever something like this happened to other Starships (Kirk and Picard) and they always made it home with no worries, they had every right to feel that way.

What they needed to do was have Janeway make mention of how this has happened before to other crews and they always made it back, and thus the VOY crew have no reason to think they won't make it home in less than 75 years.

This isn't like Battlestar Galactica where the crew are all that remain of civilization. Voyager was just one ship in a galaxy they KNOW is full of wormholes or super-powered FTLs or beings of vast power that can send ships anywhere, etc. This whole "Community in space" thing wouldn't make any sense, nor would it make any sense that folks resigned to thinking they weren't going to make it home wouldn't just ask to leave so they could settle some random planet.

 

[InklingStar]

There should, in short, have been an entire small town/culture community aspect to the show, not just throwaway lines here and there when the rest of the shows are devoted to meeting the Random Humanoids of the Week. But the fact that none of the main cast, to my knowledge, ever seriously dates anyone outside of the opening credits-named regulars speaks volume about the small-mindedness with which the series was plotted.

That's because no one in the show, not the producers, not the writers, no one IN the show either (characters) ever believed they were going to be stuck in space for 75 years. No one.

And given how whenever something like this happened to other Starships (Kirk and Picard) and they always made it home with no worries, they had every right to feel that way.

What they needed to do was have Janeway make mention of how this has happened before to other crews and they always made it back, and thus the VOY crew have no reason to think they won't make it home in less than 75 years.

This isn't like Battlestar Galactica where the crew are all that remain of civilization. Voyager was just one ship in a galaxy they KNOW is full of wormholes or super-powered FTLs or beings of vast power that can send ships anywhere, etc. This whole "Community in space" thing wouldn't make any sense, nor would it make any sense that folks resigned to thinking they weren't going to make it home wouldn't just ask to leave so they could settle some random planet.

But Janeway and the other characters did not do that. The dialogue as written repeated over and over that they expected to take 75 years to get home, and that any chance encounter with a wormhole would just be gravy. The entire premise of the show was the fact that they were 75 years away from home. To ignore that just makes the show into TNG-lite, which is part of the criticism.

 

[zar]

It's not really fun to read.

I've been modding this forum for 4 1/2 years and a poster in it prior to that. I read more than I post now, but it's because I've been in so many of these arguments I don't really have anything else to say on the matter.

I see -- you're required (as moderator) to follow threads that you've grown tired of, so when you become bored enough, someone like kimc comes in and starts waving the mod card. Well excuse me, but this is still fun to read for some of us and your apathy is hardly a reason to step in. On an optimistic note, I suppose the fact that this is what you consider lock-worthy is a testament to the general quality of this BBS. I have a good number of years as mod under my belt as well, FYI, and I have seen far worse.

Whether you like VOY or not I think we can all agree it is probably one of the most discussed of the Treks even to this day.

Third most discussed at the moment, judging by the number of posts per forum here.

If they made so little ground, despite all other Trek shows having them be able to go vast distances with Warp Drive, then the complaints would just be that they weren't doing anything to get home.

Admiral Shran was talking about the giant leaps that shaved decades off their journey. That wasn't warp drive. And please, stop talking about what the complaints "would be". Pretending you're a seer is just as bad as distorting the current complaints by your hyperbole.

You can't drag those things out over 7 years.

Once again, nobody said that. Nobody suggested that only what we have already seen be dragged out over 7 years. There's such a thing as creativity. You know... creating new ideas, or expanding old ones.

That's because no one in the show, not the producers, not the writers, no one IN the show either (characters) ever believed they were going to be stuck in space for 75 years. No one.

And given how whenever something like this happened to other Starships (Kirk and Picard) and they always made it home with no worries, they had every right to feel that way.

What are you basing this on? I'm guessing nothing, as usual.

Let's start with the writers and producers: Every time I've seen them talk about the show they made it clear that they wanted to be different than TNG.
Listen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToVoLY976Bc#t=6m5s
At 6:05 here those TNG episodes are specifically mentioned. As a deliberate contrast, VOY was about not getting home.

Now, the characters: They have made references about not expecting to get home early on several occasions, but the most glaringly obvious was this conversation from Elogium:

CHAKOTAY: I wasn't even thinking about procreation, but I suppose it's the inevitable outcome. We should consider the fact that it might be necessary for the crew to start having children.
JANEWAY: It might take us a long time to get home.
CHAKOTAY: If it does take 75 years, we're going to need a replacement crew in about half that time.
JANEWAY: Who'd have thought we'd be considering a generational ship when we were ordered on a three-week mission.
CHAKOTAY: I know, but it's a problem we have to face now.

This whole "Community in space" thing wouldn't make any sense, nor would it make any sense that folks resigned to thinking they weren't going to make it home

JANEWAY: What would that mean for the children? What kind of life would we be giving them aboard a starship, travelling through a potentially hostile part of space? And are we equipped to provide for their needs? Child care, educational facilities. We'd be building an entire community on board this ship. That's a massive commitment.

 

[Admiral Shran]

If they made so little ground, despite all other Trek shows having them be able to go vast distances with Warp Drive, then the complaints would just be that they weren't doing anything to get home.

When did the other Trek shows have the ships transversing thousands upon thousands of light-years with normal warp drive? Please, cite examples.

Whenever they did have ships cover that much distance, it was through "extraordinary" means, not with their standard warp engines.

And please, enough of the "the complaints would just be." As zar said, you're not a seer.

I mean, sure, Farscape got away with this and no one complained, but VOY is held to such a nasty double standard it begs the question.

Enough of this as well, please.

For the record, yet again - I have not seen Farscape. I'm not comparing VOY to Farscape. I don't care about Farscape. I don't even know what Farscape is about. So please stop using that show against what I'm saying.

The way the "wasted premise" "so much potential to be more" folk go on, it sure seems like "Internal Story Arcs" DOES mean "Crew all hate each other".

1.) Chakotay slowly comes to terms with the fact that everything he fought for is gone (it's on the other side of the galaxy) and he has to come to terms with his new life.

2.) Upon learning that the Dominion has destroyed the Maquis, Torres has to spend more than one episode coming to terms with her grief.

3.) Tuvok learns to be more accomadating with the Maquis and their lifestyle - maybe even going so far as to begin to perfer the Maquis lifestyle to the Vulcan lifestyle.

4.) Janeway spends several episodes throughout the series pinning away for a life that doesn't involve starship command. Eventually, she begins to transfer a lot of command duties over to Chakotay while she pursues other life interests.

5.) Seska's baby turns out to be Chakotay's. Chakotay takes the child at the end of Basics, Part II and raises him on VOY.

6.) Samantha Wildman realizes she will probably never see her husband again and so begins dating.

7.) The Doctor sets up a school for training medics other than Tom Paris.

8.) Neelix decides to stop being an "ambassador" and morale officer, and instead realizes that in addition to being the cook he likes being a school teacher for all the children onboard (Naomi, Chakotay's baby, the Borg children).

9.) Tal Celes is introduced earlier and slowly gains more confidence in her job duties.

There you go. Nine examples of internal story arcs they could have gone with that use the show's premise and yet don't involve the crew hating each other.

 

[Anwar]

But Janeway and the other characters did not do that. The dialogue as written repeated over and over that they expected to take 75 years to get home, and that any chance encounter with a wormhole would just be gravy.

Which didn't make much sense, really. They should have taken advantage of past continuity where this happened before and use it to give the crew initial hope that they'd end up home not just within their lifetimes but within no large amount of time as well. It should have been the OPPOSITE of the "Community in space" idea, with any thoughts on a Space-Community not coming until later one when they realized it wouldn't be that easy.

When did the other Trek shows have the ships transversing thousands upon thousands of light-years with normal warp drive? Please, cite examples.

In "Q Who?" when Q sends them 7,000 LY away, Data says that it would take them 2 years to reach the nearest Starbase. So only two years of traveling under their own power would get them that far.

Not to mention how TOS had them go to the edge of the Galaxy and back like it was nothing.

Those character arcs look okay, though some of them really wouldn't last more than a season or so.

 

[Admiral Shran]

In "Q Who?" when Q sends them 7,000 LY away, Data says that it would take them 2 years to reach the nearest Starbase. So only two years of traveling under their own power would get them that far.

But Data doesn't say it will take them two years to get back to where they orginially were. He says it will take two years "to reach the nearest starbase." Who's to say that they weren't deep within Federation space when Q flung them 7,000 light years away.

Not to mention how TOS had them go to the edge of the Galaxy and back like it was nothing.

Which is what really doesn't make sense given everything that came later. Even in Caretaker they say it will take them 70 years to cover the 70,000 light years. That means that at normal warp speed - without help from wormholes, quantum slipstreams, transwarp conduits, etc. - they would only be 7,000 light years from the Ocampan homeworld after seven years.

TOS is the series that ends up with the continuity problem there.

Those character arcs look okay, though some of them really wouldn't last more than a season or so.

I agree. They probably wouldn't last for the entire show. That why you don't do they all at the same time. Pace them out and come up with new ones.

For instance, on DS9, Worf's dishonor didn't last for the whole show. He regained it when he joined the House of Martok. Even after Jadzia died, they came up with another arc for his character - his relationship with Ezri.

 

[TheGodBen]

I disagree; I'm enjoying the hell out of this.

Now excuse me, I have to go put on my "TheGodBen is #1" thong and matching giant foam finger.

Finally! Somebody bought something from my online store.

 

[Char Aznable]

[QUOTEWhich is what really doesn't make sense given everything that came later. Even in Caretaker they say it will take them 70 years to cover the 70,000 light years. That means that at normal warp speed - without help from wormholes, quantum slipstreams, transwarp conduits, etc. - they would only be 7,000 light years from the Ocampan homeworld after seven years.

TOS is the series that ends up with the continuity problem there.

Um, no. TOS is what came first and was the initial start of the canon. Anything that later contradicts that series is the one that made the problem. Not TOS.

Besides, everytime they left the galaxy in TOS (besides WNMHGB) was a case of aliens altering the Enterprise's warp engines so it COULD make the journey.

 

[exodus]

Well Picard was comparing the individual drones to human body parts. A human is a collective of body parts but only a single being.

Yeah I know, like I said at this point there is merit for both sides.
I take this side because there was no Queen and they said that there was no queen originally and if there was no Queen then the true concept of a Hive Mind wouldn't be there. Therefore...a Collective Mind/shared consciousness. Too that shared consciousness is overpowering. Once a part of one, one cannot distinguish ones own thoughts from the group mind.

Honestly, from what they've shown I think it's a little of both.
A hive mind and the Queen in control.
I don't think the Queen is in direct contact with the entire collective all the time. I think all the drones are in contact with each other all the time but I think the Queen only links with other Borg when she's alerted. So the majority of the Borg are still a hive mind most of the time.

Like when they say the Borg don't bother you unless they see you as a threat? I think they don't find you a threat because she doesn't know you're there yet. Her focus is on other Borg somewhere else assimilating someone and unaware of you until you do something stupid to draw her attention. I think she's the one that gives the commands "assimilate". "regenerate", etc., in most times the Borg are on the own "scout" autopilot. It's works kinda like a spider-web lattace of communication with the Queen as the spider in the center and the collective is the web.

They've just made it seem like the Queen is unaware of things in her own hive until you draw her attention to it. Like what they said in "Dark Frontier", she organizes them because if they were completely a hive mind, if Cube is set for assimilation then they all would at the same time. Something has to distinguish which group of Borg on what vessel should do something independantly and when, right? That's why I picture how they work like a web lattace.

 

[Gaith]

But Janeway and the other characters did not do that. The dialogue as written repeated over and over that they expected to take 75 years to get home, and that any chance encounter with a wormhole would just be gravy.

Which didn't make much sense, really. They should have taken advantage of past continuity where this happened before and use it to give the crew initial hope that they'd end up home not just within their lifetimes but within no large amount of time as well.

With respect, that's bull. Not only can they not turn around and go home pretty much anytime they like (unlike Kirk and Picard), they're going through totally uncharted space. They could just as easily run into a huge empire full of psychotic aliens who murder mixed-species crews as find a quick way home.

Those character arcs look okay, though some of them really wouldn't last more than a season or so.

No one was saying they'd have to.

 

[zar]

Which didn't make much sense, really. They should have taken advantage of past continuity where this happened before and use it to give the crew initial hope that they'd end up home not just within their lifetimes but within no large amount of time as well. It should have been the OPPOSITE of the "Community in space" idea, with any thoughts on a Space-Community not coming until later one when they realized it wouldn't be that easy.

They did try to keep the crew hopeful and Janeway did mention wormholes etc. in the very first episode. But that doesn't change the fact that the crew at large and Janeway herself was aware of the inevitable reality, which was revealed countless times through dialog. There's a difference between hope and realistic expectations. Just because we the viewers saw the TOS and TNG ships get flung faraway and back again doesn't mean it makes sense for characters in the ST universe to expect or rely on such extraordinary happenings.

 

[exodus]

Which didn't make much sense, really. They should have taken advantage of past continuity where this happened before and use it to give the crew initial hope that they'd end up home not just within their lifetimes but within no large amount of time as well. It should have been the OPPOSITE of the "Community in space" idea, with any thoughts on a Space-Community not coming until later one when they realized it wouldn't be that easy.

They did try to keep the crew hopeful and Janeway did mention wormholes etc. in the very first episode. But that doesn't change the fact that the crew at large and Janeway herself was aware of the inevitable reality, which was revealed countless times through dialog. There's a difference between hope and realistic expectations. Just because we the viewers saw the TOS and TNG ships get flung faraway and back again doesn't mean it makes sense for characters in the ST universe to expect or rely on such extraordinary happenings.

Yeah, but it did.
They found a Borg hub that got them home way ahead of what was expected.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Why was Janeway too chicken to use it the first time around?

 

[zar]

Too much coffee?

 

[Admiral Shran]

Um, no. TOS is what came first and was the initial start of the canon. Anything that later contradicts that series is the one that made the problem. Not TOS.

Sorry but I got to disagree. Just because something comes first, doesn't mean that must be given special consideration.

Consider this sequence....

Z D D D D

Which letter doesn't belong? Here's a hint - not D.

If everything that came after TOS is in agreement, as I believe it is on this particular subject, than TOS is the series with the problem.




Wait a minute, I think I just defended VOY against TOS.

Does this mean my fellow Haters will kick me out of the official "DS9 Is God and VOY Is For Poopooheads" fanclub?

 

[exodus]

Why was Janeway too chicken to use it the first time around?

It was full of Borg.

Duh!

 

[Guy Gardener]

Right, so the admiral was hella-crazy...

But the captain never seemed swayed from the idea of wading into a hive of Borg and never had a chance to say "fuck risk". It would have been out of character to take the safer path. The youngling was only told that she would chicken out, but that could have just been the admiral lying to the child version of herself to force he senior's will on the matter of effect.

Tos is crazy. At one point they say that the galaxy is over 100,000,000 Light years across which you have to ignore for convenience but in another breath they claim that the Vulcan's have been a space fearing race for half a million years and you have to celebrate that...

I read a novel that put forward that there is a school of thought in Starfleet that Kirk never did half the things he claimed to have done, the crew of the USS Enterprise were just drunk and bored out of their minds for 5 years and were having a little laugh at the expense of the folks back home.

Baby galaxy sized Amoeba?

Pull the other one Jimmy.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Dang, this thread is really dying down.

 

[Anwar]

I've spent the last few days traveling to Florida and enjoying it. Not much time for the Net, sorry.

 

[Kai Winn]

[QUOTEWhich is what really doesn't make sense given everything that came later. Even in Caretaker they say it will take them 70 years to cover the 70,000 light years. That means that at normal warp speed - without help from wormholes, quantum slipstreams, transwarp conduits, etc. - they would only be 7,000 light years from the Ocampan homeworld after seven years.

TOS is the series that ends up with the continuity problem there.

Um, no. TOS is what came first and was the initial start of the canon. Anything that later contradicts that series is the one that made the problem. Not TOS.

Besides, everytime they left the galaxy in TOS (besides WNMHGB) was a case of aliens altering the Enterprise's warp engines so it COULD make the journey.

not always. in tff, the 30,000 ly or so journey to the centre of the galaxy took them mere hours. in tng's where no one has gone before they did 2,7 million ly in their first jump, and data stated that the journey back would last "more than 300 years". a bit less than 100,000 ly per year. the
enterprise got to the expanse in a matter of weeks, but daniels states in 2554 on occasion of the great battle federation vs sphere builders that the expanse expanded 50,000 ly. federation space is evidently not yet within the expanse.