Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[Anwar]

I think it's a combination of both. It saved money not to change the sets every few episodes and alter the physical ship model and it made syndication easier.

 

[number6]

UPN didn't want any lengthy arcs. They wanted the Maquis/Starfleet conflict resolved in as few episodes as possible and vetoed the season long Year of Hell. They were heavily involved in the creative process.

 

[kimc]

UPN didn't want any lengthy arcs. They wanted the Maquis/Starfleet conflict resolved in as few episodes as possible and vetoed the season long Year of Hell. They were heavily involved in the creative process.

They were TOO involved in the creative process. Still think updated CGI would be cool though.

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, I agree on all those points. Though it's not so much "involved" as "interfered".

It didn't help that one of the show's own creators didn't even like the premise and just wanted to do more TNG.

 

[number6]

Yeah, I agree on all those points. Though it's not so much "involved" as "interfered".

It didn't help that one of the show's own creators didn't even like the premise and just wanted to do more TNG.

Which one??

It's pretty common knowledge that UPN wanted another TNG-like show.

 

[Anwar]

Jeri Taylor.

CGI would've fixed a lot, and made it easier to divert more money to the makeup department. Maybe make the Kazon look less like Klingons and made them more full-body/face made-up like the Xindi Reptilians.

UPN should've just listened to Berman, since he didn't think it was a good idea to have more than one Trek show on at the same time. Despite what Behr has to say, Berman wanted DS9 to be the sole Trek show on at the time and do VOY after it.

 

[number6]

So which of the show's creators didn't like the premise and just wanted to do more TNG?

 

[zar]

If the thread is now back on topic, at least as narrowly construed, the answer to the question (reading Trek community as this bbs,) is a combination of things.

1.Voyager wasn't serialized.
2. Voyager wasn't DS9.
3. Ron Moore did a hatchet job on Voyager and his admirers fell for it.
4. Woman captain.

The only valid complaint is the first. Voyager was episodic. And lots of people are convinced that serialization is superior.

Since you're reading Trek community as this BBS, where are all the posts about... well, about ANY of those four things? I haven't seen any. I've seen people like you who automatically accuse criticizers of Janeway to be sexist, which isn't fair. I haven't seen anything about Ron Moore. I've seen people say they like DS9 more than they like VOY, but nothing about a correlation; it's a desperate stretch of logic to claim that they dislike VOY because it's not DS9. And DS9 itself was still mostly episodic. I have no idea where your belief that VOY critics hate episodic shows comes from.

 

[Saquist]

The Borg were always a Hive Mind though. A Collective Consciousness would mean that each Borg would have the ability to talk and make their own decisions without the big Voice speaking, and that isn't what TNG showed.

TNG showed many speaking as one. That's it.
They never said they didn't have their own mind. Think about it. They say "We are the Borg" as a collective. It's not one mind it's many. Now what ever state those minds are in is up for rigorous debate but they do say "WE" not I am the Borg, like the Queen does.

Hugh did not revert back to a consciousness aware that he was an individual he remained as he always had been only with the voices gone. "I cannot hear the others." His will appeared to be intact.

If they WERE a Collective the way you say they are, they'd be a lot more interesting because it would mean that we could have Borg who talked, could think, and perform actions separate from their group. But that's not how they were conceived.

Not necessarily. Star Trek doesn't go into detail as to WHY all the borg act as one they do. We don't know if it's by force or by will. One thing for sure TNG never said or even implied that the Entire force of Borg were captives. In fact in some ways they implied the opposite with dialogue about no central leader. Picard seems to be the exception rather than the rule who is assimilated and who's consciousness is take over but even First Contact the Queen alludes to the Captain's mind being intact...that he willingly surrender to her.

Don't get me wrong, It's DANG confusing and that's because I believe the two ideas weren't meant to co-mingle. Lets remember they were just making up as it went along but I think Hugh is a good example of the individual actually remaining intact but part of the whole.

And if VOY or FC had tried to change them into that, make them interesting, then it wouldn't have gone over well and they'd have to go back to the boring "One Voice commands all" schtick.

I see nothing wrong with either. I don't need to relate with an idea on a human level. I'm very adaptable, I've read alot of Sci Fi and many different ways to do this such as was done in a TRUE Hive mind in the book by Orson Scott Card called XENOCIDE. There it was one thought one voice and no individuals at all in an insectoid race. It doesn't matter what the schtick is it's how you use it.

Though frankly, the kind of stories folks were expecting would have been too expensive back in 1995. If the show was made in 2000 when stuff like CGI was cheaper, and they had more props leftover from DS9 to re-use and alter, then the kind of things like ship damage and internal set changes would've been more economical and thus allowed by Paramount.

If ENT had been allowed to be it's own show from the begining they could have taken real risk but the show didn't die because of a lack of risk. It was boring, full of bad acting and uninteresting plots. I think primarily it offended alot of Trek Fans. They slapped some slopp together and fed to us like we wouldn't know the difference.

Listen, even if they got all the continuity right and they didn't screw with the Vulcans and the timeline and the tech the characters were still boring, the stories were still boring. The show still would have been cancelled.

 

[number6]

Taylor was brought in the development process and developed a lot of Janeway's character, as mentioned in the making of book with came out during VOY's first season.

What's your source of this alleged claim you are now making?

 

[Anwar]

So which of the show's creators didn't like the premise and just wanted to do more TNG?

Jeri Taylor.

And in response to Zar, the problem wasn't being episodic but not having its own distinct identity. VOY could've been episodic as long as they had a distinctiveness to their episodes.

 

[number6]

UPN didn't want VOY to be episodic. And where did you get the info that:
Jeri Taylor hated the show's premise?
Jeri Taylor got fired from VOY along with Piller?
Ira Behr denied Berman's opposition to having two Trek shows on the air?

Are you just going to spew this hyperbolic nonsense as fact without any real proof?

 

[zar]

The Borg were always a Hive Mind though. A Collective Consciousness would mean that each Borg would have the ability to talk and make their own decisions without the big Voice speaking, and that isn't what TNG showed.

TNG showed many speaking as one. That's it.
They never said they didn't have their own mind. Think about it. They say "We are the Borg" as a collective. It's not one mind it's many. Now what ever state those minds are in is up for rigorous debate but they do say "WE" not I am the Borg, like the Queen does.

Hugh did not revert back to a consciousness aware that he was an individual he remained as he always had been only with the voices gone. "I cannot hear the others." His will appeared to be intact.

Hmm...

PICARD: Think of them as a single, collective being. There's no one Borg who is more an individual than your arm or your leg.

CRUSHER: But if we erase his memory, who he is or who he has become would be destroyed.
RIKER: Isn't that the point? He'd be reassimilated into the hive without any questions.

I, Borg

 

[Anwar]

TNG showed many speaking as one. That's it. They never said they didn't have their own mind. Think about it. They say "We are the Borg" as a collective. It's not one mind it's many. Now what ever state those minds are in is up for rigorous debate but they do say "WE" not I am the Borg, like the Queen does.

The many speaking as one IS a Hive Mind. No individuals but the one Voice (all their minds combined) having now become an intelligence unto itself and controlling all the Drones. What happened to Picard shows that the Collective mind forcibly controls those who do not agree with the Collective. Individual suppression.

Hugh did not revert back to a consciousness aware that he was an individual he remained as he always had been only with the voices gone. "I cannot hear the others." His will appeared to be intact.

I don't think Hugh was ever an individual to begin with. He was supposed to be like those babies from "Q Who?" who were always Borg. He had no prior consciousness to revert to. He wasn't like Seven.

Don't get me wrong, It's DANG confusing and that's because I believe the two ideas weren't meant to co-mingle. Lets remember they were just making up as it went along but I think Hugh is a good example of the individual actually remaining intact but part of the whole.

Like I said, Hugh was different from Seven and Picard. They were individuals forced into the Collective, Hugh was never an individual.

I see nothing wrong with either. I don't need to relate with an idea on a human level. I'm very adaptable, I've read alot of Sci Fi and many different ways to do this such as was done in a TRUE Hive mind in the book by Orson Scott Card called XENOCIDE. There it was one thought one voice and no individuals at all in an insectoid race. It doesn't matter what the schtick is it's how you use it.

The Boring Hive Mind Borg shown in TNG are what the fans came to expect and they wouldn't accept any deviations from that. They're very unpleasable that way.

If ENT had been allowed to be it's own show from the begining they could have taken real risk but the show didn't die because of a lack of risk. It was boring, full of bad acting and uninteresting plots. I think primarily it offended alot of Trek Fans. They slapped some slopp together and fed to us like we wouldn't know the difference.

That's pretty debatable. Most of the "canon violations" weren't canon violations at all.

Listen, even if they got all the continuity right and they didn't screw with the Vulcans and the timeline and the tech the characters were still boring, the stories were still boring. The show still would have been cancelled.

TOS wasn't even consistent with itself, the ENT Vulcans aren't really any different from the Vulcans seen in TOS (They WERE all assholes in TOS, except for Spock and Sarek. And Spock had asshole moments too). And the tech wasn't any more advanced than TOS'.

Truth is, Paramount wouldn't have let them make a show so separated from what was seen prior, they're quite bad that way.

 

[Anwar]

UPN didn't want VOY to be episodic. And where did you get the info that:
Jeri Taylor hated the show's premise?
Jeri Taylor got fired from VOY along with Piller?
Ira Behr denied Berman's opposition to having two Trek shows on the air?

Are you just going to spew this hyperbolic nonsense as fact without any real proof?

I think you mean UPN didn't want it serialized. But Taylor agreeing didn't help matters.

She didn't hate it, she wanted the show to be lighter and softer and for the crew to get along better. It was some quote/interview she gave when doing Season 2.

Taylor was off the show. What do YOU think happened?

Behr complained about Berman interfering with DS9, I'm saying that Berman wanted DS9 to get all the coverage and be the one Trek show on. Meaning Behr was wrong about Berman disliking the show.

 

[number6]

Berman never hated DS9.

DS9 got screwed because UPN wanted a new Trek show. Berman had to create that show and gave Behr a lot of freedom. Sure Berman disagreed on a lot of the war stuff, but it was his idea to bring Worf onto the show and DS9 did Klingon culture better than any Trek show as a result..

Berman never gets the credit Behr gladly takes for the quality of DS9.

VOY, on the other hand was a network show.
Taylor developed the show and ran its first season. Taylor retired after working for Star Trek for nearly 10 years. A lot of writers also came and went over the course of the series. Were they all fired, too?? What do I think happened?? I think Taylor moved on as writers do and did. The only real "drama" was how Moore left the show because he couldn't handle Braga being in charge of him.

 

[Admiral Shran]

If the thread is now back on topic, at least as narrowly construed, the answer to the question (reading Trek community as this bbs,) is a combination of things.

1.Voyager wasn't serialized.

Yes. It needed to be more serialized. But that doesn't mean that every single episode needed to follow on from the last (like the final nine episodes of DS9). It just needed some continuing story arcs.

2. Voyager wasn't DS9.

No. It is possible to not like DS9 and not like VOY at the same time. There are people out there who don't like either.

3. Ron Moore did a hatchet job on Voyager and his admirers fell for it.

No. How did he do a hatchet job? In fact, I haven't heard one thing in this thread about Ron Moore being a reason for people criticizing VOY.

4. Woman captain.

No. Just because people criticize her doesn't mean it's because of her gender. I criticize a lot of things Picard did. Does that mean I don't like TNG because it had a male captain?

 

[Listener4]

I recently watched all of Voyager, seeing several episodes I had originally missed. I'm more positive toward the series now, and consider it superior to Enterprise. But I still found it very disappointing.

Voyager should have been much, much more than it was.

 

[Servo]

I countered a point you made early on in the thread, and you basically swept it to one side without even debating the issue, because it didn't fit with your viewpoint,

If you want to call my not agreeing with you because you failed to make your point "sweeping aside" then okay, I swept it aside.

How exactly did I fail to make my point? I gave valid examples of how Archer and Janeway came from very different times, backed up by a comment from Janeway herself, showing how Archer got away with more morally ambiguous behaviour (stealing a warp coil in "Damage", anyone?). I've yet to see you even debate the issue without putting on a mod tone or using a patronising smilie.

 

[Anwar]

Yes. It needed to be more serialized. But that doesn't mean that every single episode needed to follow on from the last (like the final nine episodes of DS9). It just needed some continuing story arcs.

If the ship was always going to be on the move, then whatever arcs they would've have wouldn't have lasted very long. And don't say "The arcs should've been internal", because if they couldn't learn to work together after 1 season it'd be clear they wouldn't be alive much longer.