Unseen TOS....

[MGagen]

Warped9,

I'm loving this new project of yours. It is so in line with my own personal preferences. I will be following with interest.

I have been very disappointed with the official prehistory the franchise has worked out for TOS. As a fan from the early days, that period before there was any other ST than TOS and the animated series, I concur that it was a magical time. The "past Trek" we have received is an anemic, paltry thing compared to the rich possibilities that were hinted at in the series and its production archives.

Fleshing out the original TOS universe using only TOS sensibilities will be fascinating.

A couple of thoughts for your consideration:

Regarding the Animated series, don't be afraid to pick and choose between what's good and what's bad. Its chief attractions are the original writers and voice talent Filmation brought in to make it. But it is a mixed bag. For every Yesteryear there are several 50-foot Spocks...

As for when FTL was achieved, I like the freer way you're thinking than merely the usual "impulse vs. warp drive" approach. My thought would be to consider that "impulse" refers to any type of reaction drive, whether or not it is combined with other techniques to achieve practical FTL results. Warp drive would then apply to reactionless, gravitic effects, specifically harnessed to FTL. This is the "warp field/contracting-expanding space itself" type of drive. If you make this distinction, it would go hand-in-hand with artificial gravity generation. The physics of the one would lead eventually (but not necessarily immediately) to the other. The effect on ship design would be that pre-warp ships would be in top-up rocket-style deck arrangements because they are dealing with thrust effects; while warp ships would feature artificial gravity deck arrangements, because they necessarily need to control inertial effects. It could also mean that there was a period where artifical gravity generation was available, but before the same physics had matured to the point of allowing true space warp FTL

A final comment: Thanks for re-posting your Shuttle Maintenance Deck images. That is one of my favorite TOS-E extrapolations I've ever seen.

MGagen

 

[Warped9]

Don’t hate me folks, but I am reviewing/reconsidering what I have done so. I am not talking about throwing everything away, but rather revising my idea.

I found myself going back to my initial photoshopped effort and previous 3D model reassessing what I liked and didn’t like. I also reviewed Matt Jefferies’ sketches of his ringship concept. To that end I want to revise my current model, but I am still sticking with the overall concept: a missile style main hull with a space warp ring style configuration.

The devil is in the details.

 

[TIN_MAN]

The word could be “crews’ “ not “crew’s”. In other words, Spock says he is picking up life and energy readings from a “cluster of ships”, not the ship Scott singled out. It is a statement to Kirk, not to Scott.

Good point Aridas, I like that interpretation, it fits well with some of my own theories.

(apologies for the long post, but this is cribbed from my notes on the related subjects)

There is dialogue in TOS/TAS suggesting that some relatively recent and significant breakthrough in propulsion technology c. 30 yrs “BT” (Before TOS) -relating to time- has occurred (And which the Enterprise/Constitution class is among the first so equipped)

SPOCK; “S.S. Columbia, disappeared in that region approx 18 yrs ago”

TYLER: (to crash survivors) “And you won’t believe how fast you can get back. Well, the time barriers been broken, our new ships can…” TC/M

So perhaps the newer time warp tech is an improvement or addition to the older more limited space warp tech discovered by Cochrane, one which overcomes some limitation with the latter which had come to be known in general parlance as “the time barrier”?

The above has interesting implications for seeming contradictions between TOS and TAS as to when “warp drive” technology was first implemented.

SARAH APRIL: “the first chief medical officer on a starship equipped with warp drive”. (It has been generally been assumed that the starship in question was the Enterprise, since her husband -Robert April- was the ships first captain, so perhaps the 1st production model after the prototype Bonaventure?)

On this basis it seems that Sarah April uses the term “warp drive” as a reference to the more recent time warp tech. suggesting perhaps, that it is the time warp tech that has the drive or field propulsion aspect associated with it? So perhaps Cochran’s earlier “discovery” of the space warp was for a static warp field with no drive aspect associated with it and therefore merely allowed for the ”old” impulse engines to “cheat” the light speed barrier?

Then there’s this from “The Time Trap”;

SCOTTY “There’s the old Bonaventure; she was the 1st ship to have warp drive installed”. (A ship that looks a lot, perhaps tellingly, like the Enterprise)

Interpreting this is somewhat problematical; on the one hand, the design of the Bonaventure suggests that it could be a prototype vessel for the more recent “time” warp innovation that resulted in the production-line ships like the Enterprise. This is supported not only by its overall design configuration but also by the “NCC” on the nacelles, as well as the fact that a female member of the Elysian council is wearing what appears to be a “Cage era” Starfleet uniform, and therefore may be the captain or one of the crew. On the other hand, Spock’s statement about “The crew's descendants may still be living, Captain.” suggests that it is perhaps the older “space” warp tech that is being referred to after all?

But if we interpret “crew’s” as “crews” as Aridas suggests, then the contradiction is resolved.

So IMHO, the preponderance of evidence here seems to point toward the conclusion that the Bonaventure should be considered as equipped with the newer time warp innovation. And even if Spock’s statement refers to the Bonaventure, perhaps it should be taken in light of a similar statement he made in WNMHGB regarding one of his “ancestors” who married a human female.

In any event, note also that the use of the terms “installed” and “equipped with” in each case might imply some contraption that can be added to existing starship’s internal engineering systems, and therefore not something requiring a wholesale redesign of existing starship hull configurations.

In TOS, Zephram Cochrane “discovered” the “space warp” and was believed to have died c. 150 yrs BT (Before TOS = ~200 from 1996 per “Space Seed”) yet he is known as Zephram Cochrane “of Alpha Centauri” despite being referred to –and acting like- a human from Earth. So perhaps Cochrane “discovered” the space warp when he was still quite young, say around the year 2018, when sleeper ships like the Botany Bay were no longer necessary for use within the solar system, according to Lt. Marla McGivers in “Space Seed”.

Below is relevant dialogue from “Metamorphosis”

KIRK: Zephram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri, the discoverer of the space warp?

COCHRANE: That's right, Captain.

MCCOY: But that's impossible. Zephram Cochrane died a hundred and fifty years ago.

SPOCK: The name of Zephram Cochrane is revered throughout the known galaxy. Planets were named after him. Great universities, cities.

KIRK: Isn't your story a little improbable, Mister Cochrane?

COCHRANE: No, it's true. I was eighty seven years old when I came here.

If Cochran was 87 yrs old when he was lost to the pages of history, and that was a 150 years before the Enterprise’s five year mission, then Cochrane would have been about 37 years old in 2018!

So it was at this point that at least that limited interstellar travel presumably became feasible, albeit still requiring cryogenic sleep for months/years? Although missions were aimed at the nearest stars, some inevitably would malfunction and the crew would, like that of the Botany bay [DY-100], would oversleep for decades or centuries.

This, would not only explain how the Valiant [#’115’]“from 200 years ago” (WNMHSGB) got out into deep space but also how the Terra-10 colony (TTI) was established so far from Earth. (Especially if they were both using early space warp drive combined with sleeper ship technology, they may have slept for generations before meeting their respective fates?)

If we accept that the SS Valiant used an early “static” field space warp/sleeper ship combination, then it would likely still use impulse (rocket) power for propulsion, this is consistent with Kirk’s statement that “the old impulse engines weren’t strong enough” to resist the magnetic storm from pulling it off course.

 

[Warped9]

Nicely laid out, guys. Really helps to clarify my thinking. And it certainly paints a different picture of pre TOS history than what “official” Trek has laid out throughout the franchise. It lays out a more nuanced and more interesting backstory than “official” prehiistory.

That said it does make me think about a “galactic survey cruiser” with a warp drive that might still require the vessel to be a sleeper ship. Imagine setting out to survey/explore deep space star system by star system while having to sleep between destinations. That paints a very different picture than that of “official” Trek which has early starflight being pretty much the same from the beginning all the way through to the post TNG era.

Wow!

 

[ashleytinger]

I do like the idea of an Expanse style layout where gravity is provided by thrust and the ship is basically built like a skyscraper inside away from the engines

 

[Warped9]

Don’t hate me folks, but I am reviewing/reconsidering what I have done so. I am not talking about throwing everything away, but rather revising my idea.

I found myself going back to my initial photoshopped effort and previous 3D model reassessing what I liked and didn’t like. I also reviewed Matt Jefferies’ sketches of his ringship concept. To that end I want to revise my current model, but I am still sticking with the overall concept: a missile style main hull with a space warp ring style configuration.

The devil is in the details.

To reiterate I am also looking over real world vehicles such the previously mentioned Atlas rocket as well as the Saturn 1B and the Polaris A3, both of which also existed in 1965. There are also jet aircraft of the 1950s to early 1960s that could have interesting visual cues for inspiration. 1960s era aerospace concept art is yet another source of reference. Much of this might have been available to Matt Jefferies also as he worked out his ideas.

 

[Dukhat]

“The Corbomite Maneuver” – Balok's ship the Fesarius is impressive even if we don't get a really good look at it. Ditto with his small scout craft. But maybe it might have been nice to have seen something of a schematic of Balok's ship on one of Spock's monitor screens.

This is just conjecture on my part, but I got the impression that the sphere was just a large empty shell meant to produce a false sense of intimidation, just like the fake Balok puppet, and that the small ship was actually the Fesarius.

“Friday’s Child”

– Our first time seeing a Klingon D7 battle cruiser or could this be a different design?

The ship was described by Kras as a small scout ship, and as a 'warship' by Chekov (although pretty much any ship built by Klingons would be considered a warship.) Considering the fact that the ship retreated instead of engaging the Enterprise in battle makes me think that it wasn't a D7, but rather a much smaller and lesser-armed vessel. I'm currently building a model of what I think the original TOS VFX people used for the prop. I'll post pics once it's complete and provide my reasoning behind why I think this.

“A Piece Of The Action”

– The old starship Horizon.

Kirk makes a statement that gives a clue about the Horizon's design. He tells Oxmyx:

KIRK: I'll explain it in more detail when I see him. The ship won't land, but we'll transport several people down. Well, that's a little difficult for you to understand, too. I'll explain it in more detail when I see you. Where will be convenient?

Telling Oxmyx that the Enterprise won't land implies that the Horizon did originally land on the planet (especially since the other implication is that the Horizon did not have transporters), so the ship must have been some type of landing craft (in contrast to the conjecture that the Horizon was a Daedalus class ship with the ball-and-cylinder design which absolutely does not look like it can land on a planet's surface.)

 

[Albertese]

...
The ship was described by Kras as a small scout ship, and as a 'warship' by Chekov (although pretty much any ship built by Klingons would be considered a warship.) Considering the fact that the ship retreated instead of engaging the Enterprise in battle makes me think that it wasn't a D7, but rather a much smaller and lesser-armed vessel. I'm currently building a model of what I think the original TOS VFX people used for the prop. I'll post pics once it's complete and provide my reasoning behind why I think this....

I look forward to seeing this model of yours. I've had ideas about this ship myself. I've made a few attempts to make it a TOS version of a Bird of Prey where the thin antenna- like structures are the lit edges of otherwise unlit wings. Never quite ended up with a design I was happy with though.

In other news, I started my W9-style Valiant model tonight. Soldered together a simple brass armature to support it all. (May be structural overkill, but I love to overengineer things.) Once I get a little more progress I think I'll start my own thread but whenever I finish, I will definitely put the final result on here as well.

--Alex

 

[publiusr]

To reiterate I am also looking over real world vehicles such the previously mentioned Atlas rocket as well as the Saturn 1B and the Polaris A3, both of which also existed in 1965. There are also jet aircraft of the 1950s to early 1960s that could have interesting visual cues for inspiration. 1960s era aerospace concept art is yet source of reference. Much of this might have been to Matt Jefferies also as he worked out his ideas.

I also think that ships and crews need to favor. The Rodger Young needed to be Master Chiefs ride. Cyber men and Phil Bono’s Rhombus SSTO with the tanks echoing the helmet handles

 

[trynda1701]

@Warped9

This is another interesting thread of yours (sorry, been a bit busy to comment on it till now).

I actually like the original version you showed in the first couple of posts here (the first two space pics in post #2), which looked liked a nice combination of a rocket main body, with a Matt Jeffries concept for the ring.

This looked liked a pre-TOS design that fitted, unlike the original TOS rocket design in "Spocks Brain" that, to me, didn't fit the advanced ion drive concept. But I know that's not the point of this thread.

Looking forward to see your revised concept for the Valiant, and others 'not seen' originally.

 

[Warped9]

There is something elemental about this that works. It might look a bit too 1950s retro, but maybe I just need to tweak it.

 

[tesral]

It's the bare metal look. Go with eggshell or gray.

 

[trynda1701]

It's the bare metal look. Go with eggshell or gray.

That would help. Plus, would Matt have had access to 60s model kits for the Apollo hardware? Maybe a tweak of the details on the main hull to suggest that is the tweak needed? The ring looks fine.

As I said, I really like this version. I could see the schematics that follow those pics are the next class designed from this.

 

[Warped9]

My revised version now strikes me as the next evolutionary step although there are things I like about it very much. But it just looks a bit too advanced for an early FTL vessel.

The present model has been revised twice halfway through so a third revision isn’t going to kill me. Looking a bit retro isn’t hard, but getting a look that suggests someone else’s work is trickier.

Mind you Jefferies wasn’t the only one designing stuff for TOS. Wah Chang was also designing stuff for Star Trek.

 

[StarCruiser]

I have no issue with an Enterprise predecessor having a 50's vibe to it...

 

[BK613]

It's beautifully realized but I think it is too Destination Moon with rings. Given that Jefferies was known for putting a bunch of rocket and saucer stuff up on the wall to say "That's what we won't do," I just don't see this design being something that would he would do. Even the Sigma Draconis ship tried to break up the V2 silhouette.

 

[Warped9]

That is the debate I’m having with myself. I like the look of it, but it might be too ‘40’s/‘50’s rocketship for Star Trek, even early Trek. Thats why I’m still more inclined to adapting and adding to ‘60’s era rocket. Note, too, that during the ‘60s what was being conceptualized for the foreseeable future for interplanetary or even interstellar ships did not look like the classic V2 rocket. That is still true today.

Ironically, though, if you were to build a fast relativistic ship that could reach high percentages of c then something similar to a V2 rocket shape could be desirable. Space is not actually a total vacuum—it does have matter spread throughout it albeit very very thinly. But at velocities approaching light that thinly spread matter (such as interstellar dust) does begin to exert a pressure upon a spaceship’s hull somewhat similar to what an aircraft encounters at high altitude.

 

[publiusr]

I do like that silver look--maybe have Musk's Starship with rings...Rocketship XM-style?

 

[Warped9]

Third revision progress.



There are elements and cues from different sources here. No, this doesn't actually immitate the silhuoette of a 1960's era rocket, but the visual influence is there. It also takes cues from my early photoshop effort as well as my previous 3D model. It also borrows the odd tidbit from Jefferies' ringship concept although this design is more...muscular...than Jefferires' design. My hope as I flesh it out is for it to evoke something familiar yet for it to be its own thing with its own integrity. It is meant to look less advanced (although more advanced than what a 1960's audience would be familiar with), but I also want it to look heroic in its own right. I like the look of a design to suggest its own stories.

The centre section is a cylinder, but the fore section tapers forward subtlely at .5 degrees before angling down further at 10 degrees. I ended the bow more abruptly to avoid the sci-fi rocket nose cone look. I emulated Jefferies' idea of a single ring support pylon rather than two as I think the counterintuitive look feels more futuristic.

 

[Henoch]

I emulated Jefferies' idea of a single ring support pylon rather than two as I think the counterintuitive look feels more futuristic.

Jeffries always liked thinly supported warp engines... Have you decided on a scale/size of the ship, yet?